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 Post subject: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:27 pm 
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I think there should be a newbie area in this international forum. In the first months you are not at eye level with experienced OS developers. Hence, some members treat newbies like a punching ball. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: New OS
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:06 pm 
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It's been proposed, the problem being that if there was a newbie forum, experienced users would have much less use to read it, and so only newbies would be in there. I know I only started reading the OS Development forum regularly when I became a moderator.

I know some 'regular' users do treat newbies harshly, but mostly it appears that way but isn't. Combuster, for example, 'appears' harsh since he always tells people to RTFM and STFW. This isn't harsh, it's a carefully considered response. In most cases, the OP should have RTFMed or STFWed, and telling them to do so in a way that appears harsh actually gets the message through. The forum has had a lot of people ask questions that could have been answered by the first result on a google search for their post title.

There's also, much as everybody hates it, a minimum intellectual requirement for developing operating systems. You HAVE to be in the top 1% of coders. You might not be in the 1% already (I'm certainly not), but you can strive to become that way. Getting there is more about wanting to get there than raw intelligence. You're not going to be able to write an operating system by copy-and-paste, it just won't work.

This forum is about a lot more than operating systems. It represents a class of people who want to learn, who want to be creative, who want to create something special and 'good', who want to give something back to the computing world.

Note that none of this is directed at you or anybody else in this thread, it's just the answer to your question.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:22 pm 
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How about a ratings system then? Members could rate each other and this would discourage members from acting hostile. The point would be to encourage high ratings and discourage low ratings. Promote/Admire only those with high ratings and you basically have everyone kissing each others asses for a good review. This would kill the nonsense. And, what is this 1% coders thing? That's rubbish.


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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:49 am 
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this 1% coders thing? That's rubbish.
Believe me, its not. How many people do you know (outside of here) that can take a hundred-and-one things into consideration before writing a line of code? Given the people I'm currently teaching system architecture (and did in the previous years) there's on average only one person in the group that's readily thinking outside the limited box of the course material. Assuming you can scratch the people who aren't good enough to attend university, I get to a grand total of well below 1% for the sample I can monitor.

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Promote/Admire only those with high ratings and you basically have everyone kissing each others asses for a good review.
No offence to Dex, but the way he posts is just by giving everyone teh codez. That makes him liked especially by newbies, but in the end nobody learns from just being given code. To be honest, I hate it when I suggest people to do their own homework and then Dex pops in and feeds them the answer, because of the obvious effect on my first order appearance.

Being a teacher, I know that giving the answers practically doesn't help anybody that didn't try their best first.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 7:50 am 
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Quote:
This forum is about a lot more than operating systems. It represents a class of people who want to learn, who want to be creative, who want to create something special and 'good', who want to give something back to the computing world.


I totally agree.

I think the issue is not with having a lot of newbies, but instead with having a lot of people who are not here for the right reasons. The problem is that these two groups intersect most of the time. I think it's a good thing that newbies are treated harshly if they ask bad questions, because it acts as a filter. The good people will either not ask bad questions or accept the criticism.

I would definitely consider myself a newbie: I've known C for ~1 year, and only started OS devving a few months ago. However, I don't think I've gotten any real abuse on this forum (which does not include skepticism, but I consider that good.) I RTFM, STFW, and test my code for hours before asking questions. Isn't the whole point to attract people like that?


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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:03 am 
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Combuster wrote:
Being a teacher, I know that giving the answers practically doesn't help anybody that didn't try their best first.

People learn in many ways, but we can not learn without copying.
Your should read this
http://blogs.msdn.com/vbteam/archive/20 ... gertz.aspx
Just think back to when we all started to code, it was in most cases, by copying a "Hello World!" tut.


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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 12:20 pm 
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I agree. I personally don't like when people post code. This is mainly a newbie thing; to post your entire kernel source and say, "Something isn't working." and then expect us to debug your code. That is ridiculous. When I see more than 10 lines of code, I drift away quickly. I wont even read the thread if I see too much green text. I mean, I use strictly VPC and there is no debugger there to help. That's why I write a few lines of code and test. If it broke, I know why; and I expect others to do the same, even with a debugger.

As for members posting entire answers, I agree this is just as bad. It doesn't seem as obnoxious as the aforementioned grievance, however, I still find it a bit fluffy and see-through. I think that is done to promote a project or brag. I mean why else would you post an entire section of your code? As for Dex, I'll make an exception because he doesn't post source he actually uses, I think. He just posts old code he wrote for testing, but like everyone else he should post that via PM or make a Tutorial and point to it. This would defeat the after effects you mentioned.

Lastly, let us examine this a bit more. Have you noticed that behavior is copied here? If someone posts a subject and the first three posters like it, the next 100 will also like it. Until, someone comes along and says it sucks, then the next 100 posts agree. We have newbies calling newbies, newbies because they have learned that behavior from being called a newbie or from witnessing the death of another newbie. I think by creating a ratings system (where the Mods could be safe from it) would motivate people to be more helpful. People here don't have anything like that, so they adore their stars. The stars mean nothing, it just means you spend way too much time online or have just been around forever. The ratings would mean that this person actually knows what they are talking about or are just helpful. With a good rating, this would inspire that person to maintain their rating and they would continue doing good. As long as you stack the proverbial deck before hand to deal in your favor the ratings system probably would never effect you negatively as a Mod.


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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 1:36 pm 
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@purage: This is basically the point of my "Custom Titles" idea. That way, members with titles stand out and can be known for what they "specialize" in.

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It keeps stunning me how friendly we - as a community - are towards people who start programming "their first OS" who don't even have a solid understanding of pointers, their compiler, or how a OS is structured.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 5:06 pm 
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If stacking the deck is what I need to do to make the rating systems work for me, then it's already a failure of an idea. Of course, I couldn't give an <expletive /> about whether people like me or not. Sure it's nice, but I'd rather do the right thing by the community than having a rating saying I suck up to people.

The problem on a technical forum is that the ratings quickly become skewed. Somebody posts their code, says it doesn't work, so you spend 3 hours fixing it for them. All very nice and happy, but it doesn't teach them how to do it themselves. Which is a huge problem. It will exacerbate the gimme teh codez problem. Which is a bad thing. Also you'll have people like Solar (who isn't a mod) get bad ratings for telling people exactly what he thinks, and everybody knows it's what the person needs to hear. And you can't protect Solar from bad ratings, since he's not a mod. And if you protect him, then you have to protect everybody else as well.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 5:20 pm 
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Right, naturally you will have exceptions to the rule. There will be people who get bad reviews. Maybe make it to where only the mods can give such a rating. Kind of like a report card based on behavior.


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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 5:43 pm 
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JackScott wrote:
If stacking the deck is what I need to do to make the rating systems work for me, then it's already a failure of an idea. Of course, I couldn't give an <expletive /> about whether people like me or not. Sure it's nice, but I'd rather do the right thing by the community than having a rating saying I suck up to people.

The problem on a technical forum is that the ratings quickly become skewed. Somebody posts their code, says it doesn't work, so you spend 3 hours fixing it for them. All very nice and happy, but it doesn't teach them how to do it themselves. Which is a huge problem. It will exacerbate the gimme teh codez problem. Which is a bad thing. Also you'll have people like Solar (who isn't a mod) get bad ratings for telling people exactly what he thinks, and everybody knows it's what the person needs to hear. And you can't protect Solar from bad ratings, since he's not a mod. And if you protect him, then you have to protect everybody else as well.


But theres already a sys like this operating on this forum, as in if you do not kiss MOD butt, you will bullied.
90% of the MODs on here are just sheep, without any back bone.
Most coders on here may not remember the last great mod on here: Pype.Clicker, now that guy was a true gentleman.

So your saying do not let the people decide, as they may come up with the wrong answer :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 5:52 pm 
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Dex wrote:
But theres already a sys like this operating on this forum, as in if you do not kiss MOD butt, you will bullied.
90% of the MODs on here are just sheep, without any back bone.
Most coders on here may not remember the last great mod on here: Pype.Clicker, now that guy was a true gentleman.


What evidence do you have to support this claim? I do not consider myself to have no backbone, and I resent your statement greatly. I am sure the other moderators would feel the same way. Also, you're saying that none of the moderators are gentlemen. On this, I have to disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 5:53 pm 
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Hold on guys, he is just frustrated. Don't take it personal. He is forgetting that there are good Mods and some of them are new Mods, so it takes time to settle in. Dex, they are just saying that they don't want members having a ratings system because it could create a new kind of social politics that has the potential to become nasty. Just forget the idea, it probably will do more harm than good anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:20 pm 
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JackScott wrote:
Dex wrote:
But theres already a sys like this operating on this forum, as in if you do not kiss MOD butt, you will bullied.
90% of the MODs on here are just sheep, without any back bone.
Most coders on here may not remember the last great mod on here: Pype.Clicker, now that guy was a true gentleman.


What evidence do you have to support this claim? I do not consider myself to have no backbone, and I resent your statement greatly. I am sure the other moderators would feel the same way. Also, you're saying that none of the moderators are gentlemen. On this, I have to disagree.

I put you and 01000101 in the 10%


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 Post subject: Re: [SPLIT] New OS
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 7:00 pm 
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Then, why not the other moderators? I hold them all in good regard. While I'm not asking you to like them all (an impossible task, given human nature), calling them spineless is very low. You still haven't founded your comments at all, and I would ask you to retract them until you have some very good reasons.

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