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 Post subject: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:18 am 
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Schol-R-LEA wrote:
You'd have to be genuinely, psychotically paranoid to think someone is going to target you because you are developing an operating system, and if you are actually thinking that, you need to check yourself into a mental hospital, right now, for your own safety and that of those around you.

And I am not joking about that.
I'm not so sure that Terry A. Davis, the developer of TempleOS would agree with you.
- His family confirmed that he was gangstalked IRL, and he was targeted on forums constantly. (He did not handle those well, but that's another topic)
- He did check into a mental hospital, and if anything that just made things worse for him. They marked him as schizophrenic, or should I say modern day witch?
- And about his safety, he died last year, accidentaly and unexpectedly long before his time, under unclear circumstances.

The resemblance Davis had to suffer with the one a certain criminal cult refer to as "Operation freakout" is uncanny. There the unfortunate victim is stalked until they are put into a mental facility (or in jail). The victim is then marked mentally ill, no matter what. However it is the brainwashed stalkers who are really mentally ill because they think what they do is a fair game and they are unable to comprehend the criminality of it and the real consequences (which is the definition of a pschyhopath, just saying). In Remini's show, he shows a reporter that freaked out similarly to Davis after being targeted, worth watching.

However I'm sure that recent spams are not targeted ones, it's nothing more than an unfortunate find of a Russian spammer bot. The spam posts are suggesting that at least. There's absolutely nothing OSDev specific in them, they are just like the other spams on other forums.

Cheers,
bzt


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:27 pm 
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bzt, I know you have had some bad experiences with Scientologists, and I know they do engage in criminal harassment. However "gangstalking" is a symptom of mental illness. It is taking random or coincidental occurrences and mistakenly attributing them to deliberate and malicious actors. People who have paranoid and psychotic symptoms often come to believe that they are actually well and that when their delusions conflict with reality it is evidence of people working against them. The belief that medical professionals are part of this conspiracy also seems common.

Terry Davis wasn't stalked because of his OS, or in connection with Scientology, he was "stalked" by a bunch of trolls who thought it was funny to provoke him. Unfortunately, if you are mentally unwell and a minor internet celebrity, maladjusted, angry people tend to follow you around. See Christian Weston Chandler, or CWC, for another example. It's nothing more than bullying, enabled to an obsessive degree by the internet. If you look at anything Terry Davis produced it is obvious he was not perceiving the world as a mentally healthy person would. Finally, his death is suspected to be a suicide, it is a sad indictment of our societies failure to properly treat mental illness, but there is no indication it was murder.


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:07 pm 
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StudlyCaps wrote:
Finally, his death is suspected to be a suicide, it is a sad indictment of our societies failure to properly treat mental illness, but there is no indication it was murder.


Minor nitpick... it is also a sad indictment of our societies failing to properly protect a mentally ill person, and handle trolling / bullying as the bodily harm it can so easily become for a victim. They might not have murdered him, but they had their part into driving him to what he did.

I fully agree with the rest of what you said.

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Last edited by Solar on Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:51 pm 
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That’s a very good point Solar, while I don’t think his probable suicide was intended by the people who were harassing him, it almost certainly did contribute and the question of how mentally ill people can be protected online is very much an open and important one.


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:22 am 
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StudlyCaps wrote:
However "gangstalking" is a symptom of mental illness. It is taking random or coincidental occurrences and mistakenly attributing them to deliberate and malicious actors.
What makes you think that? If you google gangstalking, you'll find two opposite sides:
- one says it's a mental illness, but has absolutely no proof or evidence or whatsoever for this claim. No motive, no explanation.
- the other says it's real, and they have numerous rock-solid evidence like official documents and video-recordings. In the Dianetics book you can find motive and explanation, even a "how to" on this criminal act. Also it's very well documented that the Cult of Scientology has done gangstalking in the past on several occasions.

For example, in the aforementioned Remini show, I seriously doubt that the victim has any mental illness when everybody on the street are attacking him and calling him "squirrel". For one, if this were only a product of a mentally ill mind, then how could a video record that gangstalking in the first place?

Just use Occam's razor. Out of the two possibilities, which one is more likely? The one with absolutely no proof nor explanation; or the one with evidence, motive, history and a "handbook" to do exactly those crimes?

Solar wrote:
They might not have murdered him, but they had their part into driving him to what he did.
That's a very good point, Solar. In my country, the law does not differentiate between these two: killing someone and driving them into suicide is exactly the same crime, it's just the tool that differs.

Cheers,
bzt


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:10 am 
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bzt wrote:
Just use Occam's razor. Out of the two possibilities, which one is more likely? The one with absolutely no proof nor explanation; or the one with evidence, motive, history and a "handbook" to do exactly those crimes?


In the absence of contact with any group known to practice it? The first. As vile as they are, the Co$ don't target people at random, they go after those they consider a threat (mostly this means reporters, government investigators, and ex-Happyologists).

No one is going to target anyone who is an OS-dev, on the basis of being an OS-dev. Terry Davis got harassed because he was seen by malicious idiots as entertainingly crazy and easily provoked, not because he was writing TempleOS.

Also, keep in mind that the 'gangstalking' only occurred some twenty years after Davis was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and all reports indicate that it was always related to his Internet activites.

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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:52 pm 
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I am particularly sensitive to the Terry Davis conversation and am very worried whenever I see any kind of suicidal behavior manifest due to internet activities.

I hope that no one truly believes that OS-development would lead a group to target them. Unless you are working against the NSA or an overseas equivalent, I am fairly certain that you are not being threatened.

That being said, ~: if you truly believe you are being targeted I would suggest reaching out to someone in the community and expressing how you feel and presenting evidence. It is easy to see patterns where there are none.


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:00 am 
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Schol-R-LEA wrote:
In the absence of contact with any group known to practice it?
Just because we are unaware of the details, doesn't mean there was no contact.

Schol-R-LEA wrote:
The first. As vile as they are, the Co$ don't target people at random, they go after those they consider a threat (mostly this means reporters, government investigators, and ex-Happyologists).
They also go after people who refuse their "kind invitation to join". Personal experience. They harassing me just because I said "Thanks, but no thanks".

Schol-R-LEA wrote:
No one is going to target anyone who is an OS-dev, on the basis of being an OS-dev. Terry Davis got harassed because he was seen by malicious idiots as entertainingly crazy and easily provoked, not because he was writing TempleOS.
Maybe so with Travis. However I'm pretty sure Hans Raiser was targeted because he was flagged as a Linux kernel contributor. For those who are unfamiliar with the story, it's a well known fact that the Russian mob sells poor girls on the net. Hans wanted to buy one, and he was foolish enough to marry someone who "accidentally" showed up on his bride-over-mail date (other than the bride-to-be). Then later, of course she robbed him, literally cleared all his company's bank accounts. What's more, they took away Hans' chlidren from him ("disconnection", sounds familiar?), because the thief wife accused the poor robbed lad in court untruely. That's what we know for sure. Obviously there has been some other harassments in the background which drove Hans crazy, as he ended up killing his ex-wife. It's a shame how they destroyed him, as he was one of the most talented Linux developer. (Just to be clear, I'm sure it's not the CoS behind this particular case, more likely the Russian government),

Schol-R-LEA wrote:
Also, keep in mind that the 'gangstalking' only occurred some twenty years after Davis was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and all reports indicate that it was always related to his Internet activites.
Exactly. We don't have reports what happened before and in IRL, except for the family member's talking.

Also keep in mind that DSM has no clear cut instructions. According to that, "The predominant features of schizophrenia include hallucinations and delusions and disorganized speech and behavior".
- hallucinations, disorganized speech: this can be easily arranged by drugging the victims without their knowledge. No magic or mental illness invonlved here. Again, in the Remini show there're examples that the CoS has done this to people. (And no need for black market psychedelics, a Xanax overdose will suffice.)
- delusions: if gangstalking is real, like the "squirrel" thing, then surely the victim was not imaging anything. Of course it's in the criminal's best interest to deny what they have done and call the victim a liar and delusional (who, because being drugged and incapable of organized speech, cannot defend themself).

As you can see, it is extremely easy to fake the symptoms of schizophrenia by a group of stalkers. And let me remind you, that this is exactly the goal of gangstalking, to put the poor victim into jail or into a mental institution.

Cheers,
bzt


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:43 pm 
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bzt wrote:
Maybe so with Travis. However I'm pretty sure Hans Raiser was targeted because he was flagged as a Linux kernel contributor. For those who are unfamiliar with the story, it's a well known fact that the Russian mob sells poor girls on the net. Hans wanted to buy one, and he was foolish enough to marry someone who "accidentally" showed up on his bride-over-mail date (other than the bride-to-be). Then later, of course she robbed him, literally cleared all his company's bank accounts. What's more, they took away Hans' chlidren from him ("disconnection", sounds familiar?), because the thief wife accused the poor robbed lad in court untruely. That's what we know for sure. Obviously there has been some other harassments in the background which drove Hans crazy, as he ended up killing his ex-wife. It's a shame how they destroyed him, as he was one of the most talented Linux developer. (Just to be clear, I'm sure it's not the CoS behind this particular case, more likely the Russian government),

According to the wikipedia article his dad thought his wife was stealing from him, there was no evidence it actually happened. They didn't "take away his children" they were the couple's children and they had shared custody like most divorcees. Then you say "Obviously there has been some other harassments in the background". At that point you go from speculation to simply inventing facts. He married a gold digger, they split up and he murdered her in a rage. This happens literally every day the world over, there is no reason to believe this guy was deliberately driven mad.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/11/health/gang-stalking-targeted-individuals.html
For those who don't know, this is a decent article on the growing conspiracy theory known as gangstalking.


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:53 am 
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Hi,

I wish you could read more carefully.
StudlyCaps wrote:
According to the wikipedia article his dad thought his wife was stealing from him, there was no evidence it actually happened. They didn't "take away his children" they were the couple's children and they had shared custody like most divorcees.
What you say is simply not true, according to the wikipedia:
wikipedia wrote:
She [Nina] was granted sole legal custody of the children
wikipedia wrote:
Nina Reiser obtained a temporary restraining order against Hans in December 2004
What wikipedia article are you reading, may I ask?

StudlyCaps wrote:
This happens literally every day the world over, there is no reason to believe this guy was deliberately driven mad.
...then please explain it to me, why did he kill his ex-wife? Because an ex robbing him is not nearly enough for such a rage, you said it yourself, that happens every day.

StudlyCaps wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/11/health/gang-stalking-targeted-individuals.html
For those who don't know, this is a decent article on the growing conspiracy theory known as gangstalking.
You have just proven me right: this article has absolutely no proofs nor any evidence of any kind, only pure speculations. And that was exactly my point! Now let's see an article from the opposite side: the case of Paulette Cooper is full of well documented events and evidence. Quod errat demonstrandum.

Look, I don't want to convince you. There's no need. If you have a little grey matter in your head, then you know not to believe in anything just because someone said so. If you decide to embrace the bullshit without checking its truthfulness first, that's your choice. Take the blue pill and be happy with the lies.

Cheers,
bzt


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:56 am 
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bzt, I think you are being a little bit aggressive and it is not appropriate. I am not sure how this back-and-forth is helping anyone's understanding of the topic... I think we can establish that hobby operating system developers are not the target of an anti-dev group targeting ~, Terry Davis, and the rest of us.


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:17 am 
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pistachio wrote:
bzt, I think you are being a little bit aggressive
What makes you think that? Because I'm backing up my claims with evidence and I ask for the same? I apologize if my post seemed aggressive, that's just the lack of metacomunication. I assure you, they weren't. As a matter of fact I was and I am perfectly calm. Little bit sad maybe that the scientific method has to be explained, but that's all.

pistachio wrote:
I think we can establish that hobby operating system developers are not the target of an anti-dev group targeting ~, Terry Davis, and the rest of us.
What makes you say "we can establish" when there's absolutely nothing to back that up? (to avoid confusion, I ask this not on an aggressive tone as you might think, but in a curious voice.) You see, to avoid bullshit you always have to provide at least one independent source. Have you ever wondered, why does wikipedia have a "References" section on the bottom of every single page? That's all what I kindly ask here. Importance of citation:
wikipedia wrote:
Citations have several important purposes: to uphold intellectual honesty (or avoiding plagiarism), to attribute prior or unoriginal work and ideas to the correct sources, to allow the reader to determine independently whether the referenced material supports the author's argument in the claimed way, and to help the reader gauge the strength and validity of the material the author has used.

I agree that those spams we encountered on OSDev are probably not part of a targeted attack, however I would argue that Raiser was most definitely targeted, and Davis likely. No offense, but I think this forum is not targeted because most people here are not in the same league as Hans and Terry was. (Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying there are no talents here, all I'm saying is we all have to do a *lot* with our OSes before we could get flagged like they were. I mean 99% of the hobby OSes here are in embryonic state.)

Cheers,
bzt


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:54 pm 
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Post the rest of the sentence.
wikipedia wrote:
She was granted sole legal custody of the children and shared physical custody of them with her husband.
I was going to write that he had lost his children, thus making his motive for murder more obvious, but I thought that would have been overstating my point.
So since you insist that it's the case, his ex-wife took his kids, that's motive enough for thousands of people. You think this is a less likely scenario than an international cabal of Kremlin operatives stole his money and ruined his life because he developed a file system driver no-one uses?
bzt wrote:
I would argue that Raiser was most definitely targeted, and Davis likely
I am not going to argue this anymore because as pistachio said it isn't useful, but you are clearly just projecting your paranoid fantasies onto these people. This is your "evidence", a wiki article about Scientologists harassing someone in the 1970's and baseless speculation about Davis and Raiser, and yet you have the chutzpah to demand others present evidence falsifying it? You sound in every way like a flat-earther.


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:00 pm 
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StudlyCaps wrote:
I am not going to argue this anymore because as pistachio said it isn't useful, but you are clearly just projecting your paranoid fantasies onto these people. This is your "evidence", a wiki article about Scientologists harassing someone in the 1970's and baseless speculation about Davis and Raiser, and yet you have the chutzpah to demand others present evidence falsifying it? You sound in every way like a flat-earther.
Thank you very much for proving my point (again). I kindly asked for any evidence, and all you got instead is hilarious accusations. Thanks, that was exactly my point!

Cheers,
bzt

ps.: if "paranoid fantasy" popped into your mind, maybe it is you who's not entirely whole, don't you think? You should have checked that out. No offense, it's a friendly and most sincere advice. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Targeting OSDevers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:59 pm 
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Hi,

It seems like this discussion is going nowhere.

Bzt, as much as I wish that it were possible to demonstrate all of the infinite ways that OS developers are not targeted it is not possible. Instead, as I myself, the other members of this thread, and (assumably) anyone who is active, are not reporting being targeted it is you who must affirm your claim. It is inductive reasoning my friend.

Personally, your Wikipedia article and a handful of convoluted narratives of one man's life does not convince me that it is sane to assume OS developers are being targeted. All you have succeeded thus far in doing is 1) demonstrating poor discourse skills, and 2) establishing that you may be a bit paranoid considering the evidence.

I hope my point is not lost in the wording. You are using faulty methods from which to draw conclusions. In order to show that OS developers are being targeted you must provide support to demonstrate this. It is not enough to say "there is no evidence that they are not."

Best,


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