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 Post subject: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:21 am 
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Brendan, if you have a problem, talk, but don't abuse your moderator privileges to make communication on the subject (or moderation by your co-moderators) impossible.

Here's the place. I won't post anywhere else until this is resolved either way.

I'll close this account now and trust that you will un-ban the "Solar" account so we can talk like adults.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:52 am 
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Hi,

DevSolar2 wrote:
Brendan, if you have a problem, talk, but don't abuse your moderator privileges to make communication on the subject (or moderation by your co-moderators) impossible.

Here's the place. I won't post anywhere else until this is resolved either way.

I'll close this account now and trust that you will un-ban the "Solar" account so we can talk like adults.


OK, you have a deal, but understand that I will be holding you to your word and will not be interested in petty games. Also be aware that by raising stakes you are also raising the risk of consequences.

Now...

We have history. I know you don't like me, and I simply do not care. More than that, I consider it my job to not care how anyone feels about me personally. On it's own, that's perfectly fine.

However, every 6 months or so you surface out of nowhere, create arguments about small things a rational person would assume aren't intended to be taken seriously and/or would brush aside, escalate the arguments you created, then claim you've been "offended" when both of us have known each other long enough to know where the boundaries really are. You are not an unintelligent person, you're an intelligent person that is doing these things in a deliberate and vindictive attempt to undermine me.

It's these regular attempts at undermining me that are unacceptable. It's been going on for years, and it will stop.


Cheers,

Brendan

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For all things; perfection is, and will always remain, impossible to achieve in practice. However; by striving for perfection we create things that are as perfect as practically possible. Let the pursuit of perfection be our guide.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:31 am 
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Thank you (whoever did the unbanning). Brendan posted while I wrote this, but I will finish this first before reacting to his post; this is for the general audience, especially the moderators, and not for Brendan personally.

----

For the record:

This is the thread we're talking about: https://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33224.

This is the post where I think Brendan started to be out of line: https://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?p=286235#p286235. While not being aimed at anyone in particular, his choice of words was more than questionable. I did let it slide, because perhaps he just has strong opinions on the matter and / or a bad day.

This is the post where Brendan got personal: https://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?p=286243#p286243 The first paragraph is deriding both my professional qualification and my intelligence in no uncertain terms; violating forum rules as well as general etiquette.

Where it comes to somewhat of a point is the second page of that thread (which I leave to the reader to judge). I flagged https://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?p=286266#p286266 for moderator attention. This had two effects -- one was the post by Antti, the other was that my account was banned:

Quote:
Reason given for ban: Continuing to bully and harass "fragile" members after being asked to stop


As this is about as clear a mis-use of moderator privileges as it gets, I registered a second account (DevSolar) solely to send a PM to Antti, to bring the ban to his attention.

A couple of minutes later, "Solar" was un-banned. Another couple of minutes later, "Solar" was banned again as well as "DevSolar", with a note that "circumventing a ban will result in a permanent ban".

Brendan also posted this gem here:

Brendan wrote:
My point here is that anyone can claim they've been offended by literally anything; and merely claiming they've been offended does not mean their claim is valid.

If/when I am satisfied that Solar has learnt this important lesson he will be unbanned.

Note that this is not the first time that Solar has pretended to be offended for the sake of causing trouble. It is a continuing/recurring issue, and it will end now.


So, let's enumerate.

  • Abusive behavior is abusive behavior, regardless of how much hurt you're actually inflicting. I know my qualifications and capabilities (referring to the initial insults), and I could just walk away from this forum without being fazed too much. But that would mean Brendan remains as moderator here, reinforced in the belief that behavior like his is even borderline acceptable, anywhere.
  • What he did in reaction to being called out for being offensive was textbook bullying. Victim shaming ("you're fragile"), dishonestly turning the tables (" I've been sitting here crying for the last half an hour. Why won't you stop harassing me??"), and in the end abusing his moderator privileges to "win" the argument. (The thing to do here is asking another moderator to judge the issue. You don't moderate a discussion you're personally involved in.)
  • Banning someone until "satisfied he has learned his lesson" is ridiculous, as how were he to judge if I had "learned the lesson" if I've been banned?
  • Apparently he feels he has an axe to grind with me personally; this is the first time I heard about it though. Standard procedure is to warn / discuss, then ban. This did not happen here.

Yes, I got a bit miffed at the way he called me "just a secretary", especially as it took quite a bit of malicious intent to read that out of the post you quoted. I think that is not "being fragile" but quite normal. But that is not the issue.

The issue is that Brendan exhibited abrasive behavior, refused to back down when called out for it, and instead pointed fingers and escalated the issue "because he could".

Long story short, I suggest that Brendan gets his moderator privileges revoked as he is quite evidently unfit to exercise those privileges with... well... moderation.

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Last edited by Solar on Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:32 am 
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Now, as for Brendan's post.

Brendan wrote:
...understand that I will be holding you to your word and will not be interested in petty games. Also be aware that by raising stakes you are also raising the risk of consequences.


As far as I am concerned, this is an issue about the abovementioned thread and your actions (banning my account), awaiting moderation by your peers. I therefore refuse to have you talking to me as a moderator in this matter; I expect you to bow to being held to forum rules just like everybody else. So spare me the threats.

Brendan wrote:
...every 6 months or so you surface out of nowhere, create arguments about small things a rational person would assume aren't intended to be taken seriously and/or would brush aside, escalate the arguments you created, then claim you've been "offended" when both of us have known each other long enough to know where the boundaries really are. You are not an unintelligent person, you're an intelligent person that is doing these things in a deliberate and vindictive attempt to undermine me.

It's these regular attempts at undermining me that are unacceptable. It's been going on for years, and it will stop.


As I said in my last paragraph, as far as I am concerned this is solely about what happened in the thread "Esoteric Languages". But you brought up past events, so...

If you think I have the time, capacity, or inclination to hold month-long grudges against some guys in some internet forum, you're sorely mistaken. There are some mental "flags" I have regarding certain users in certain communities, true. I can enumerate "current" ones on one hand, three of them on this very board: One making no sense whatsoever (and having a one-character username, i.e. not you). One being apparently a very bad chat bot, but I can't remember his username at this point. And one having a certain approach to segmented memory that doesn't agree with me, so I stay out of discussions with him.

If we "locked horns" in the past, I suspect it was because you behaved back then as you did now: Abrasive to the point of being abusive, and being unapologetic about it.

And I don't "pop up every 6 months or so to undermine you". Ever since I put Pro-POS to its grave (2004 or so), I was "hanging out" here for the technical and general discussions (and some PDCLib talk). There were breaks in my activity here, for personal reasons, but as my post history is publicly available to all members, I am pretty sure you won't be able to substantiate any "agenda" by me to actively "undermine you".

Given today's event, I just think you are not qualified to act as a moderator in an online community, and as I do when I encounter abusive or bullying behavior, online as in the real world, I speak up, on behalf of those who might get significantly hurt by such, because this...

Brendan wrote:
...arguments about small things a rational person would assume aren't intended to be taken seriously and/or would brush aside...


...is where you are mistaken, IMNSHO.

----

(I re-posted the link from there to here, assuming it got deleted as some kind of clean-up of what I posted with that secondary account.)

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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:47 am 
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Hi,

Solar wrote:
Quote:
Reason given for ban: Continuing to bully and harass "fragile" members after being asked to stop


As this is about as clear a mis-use of moderator privileges as it gets, I registered a second account (DevSolar) solely to send a PM to Antti, to bring the ban to his attention.


This is not a misuse of moderator privileges, it was an extremely short temporary ban (possibly the shortest I have ever given) for the sole purpose of helping you understand the difference between unjustified and justified claims of offence.

I know you too well to believe you were actually offended (and know you too well to believe that your claim of being offended was real). Later (in your second post in this topic) you indicate that you are worrying about other hypothetical people and not yourself ("I speak up, on behalf of those who might get hurt"); which I take as proof that I was correct in my initial assessment (that you were lying about being offended).

Solar wrote:
A couple of minutes later, "Solar" was un-banned. Another couple of minutes later, "Solar" was banned again as well as "DevSolar", with a note that "circumventing a ban will result in a permanent ban".


Other moderators can see the real message: "Be warned: The traditional punishment for evading temporary bans is a permanent ban".

Solar wrote:
Long story short, I suggest that Brendan gets his moderator privileges revoked as he is quite evidently unfit to exercise those privileges with... well... moderation.


Nice of you to finally be honest and show your true motivation.

Solar wrote:
If you think I have the time, capacity, or inclination to hold month-long grudges against some guys in some internet forum, you're sorely mistaken.


Yes, I very much do believe you hold grudges. This is not the first time you have suggested my removal as moderator. You know this.

Brendan wrote:
...understand that I will be holding you to your word and will not be interested in petty games. Also be aware that by raising stakes you are also raising the risk of consequences.


Solar wrote:
As far as I am concerned, this is an issue about the abovementioned thread and your actions (banning my account), awaiting moderation by your peers. I therefore refuse to have you talking to me as a moderator in this matter; I expect you to bow to being held to forum rules just like everybody else. So spare me the threats.


Here is where you're gravely mistaken. The issue is whether you are permanently banned or if you can prove you will cease your ongoing attempts at fabricating problems in the hope of displacing me.

Note that I don't have peers. All other moderators were appointed by me; and it's unlikely that any other moderators want to become innocent casualties of your futile little war.

You have one post remaining to influence my decision on what happens next. Regardless of my decision there will be no reply (it only drags things out). Choose your words wisely.


Cheers,

Brendan

_________________
For all things; perfection is, and will always remain, impossible to achieve in practice. However; by striving for perfection we create things that are as perfect as practically possible. Let the pursuit of perfection be our guide.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:16 am 
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Solar@Facebook wrote:
Wow. I never thought I'd experience this.

It's one thing to "declare yourself an ally", and speaking up in defense of others when witnessing bullying, victim shaming etc.

It's a different thing to suddenly find yourself being the target.

When a technical discussion in a web forum takes a turn to the ugly as the other person decides to deride your professional qualification as well as your intelligence to "make his point".

When, being called out for being out of line, and asked to at least acknowledge as much, that person instead calls you "fragile", "choosing not to think" and "causing drama".

When, being called out for bullying, that person instead starts mocking that he'd been crying for the last half hour because *I* had bullied *him* so badly.

When, as the issue is being reported for moderator attention, your account is blocked for 'continuing to bully and harass "fragile" members after being asked to stop'... because that other person is a moderator as well.

And I am very happy that this was an environment where my word carries some weight (as I am a long-term and high-profile member of that particular forum community). I hope to get some support from the other moderators in this, and even if I don't I wouldn't be devastated about it.

I can only imagine how bad it must be for someone who is, effectively, powerless to counter such behavior, when it isn't about "some forum" but significantly impacts their life.

Abusive behavior and bullying must not be tolerated, whether you are affected personally or not. If you are strong enough to "shrug it off", that just obligates you to make a stand for those who are not as fortunate.

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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:34 am 
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Brendan wrote:
Note that I don't have peers. All other moderators were appointed by me; and it's unlikely that any other moderators want to become innocent casualties of your futile little war.


You appointed me in 2014 but I thought that you were a moderator just like others and chase owned the forum. Could you remove my moderator status because that status seems to be worth nothing? It would clear up the situation a little bit. The community would not falsely though that this forum is moderated by a team of moderators.

A very sad day. :(

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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Hi,

Antti wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Note that I don't have peers. All other moderators were appointed by me; and it's unlikely that any other moderators want to become innocent casualties of your futile little war.


You appointed me in 2014 but I thought that you were a moderator just like others and chase owned the forum.


Chase owns the forum and (where necessary) takes care of things like DNS, hardware, maintenance, etc; but doesn't do any moderation or day-to-day administration. Over the years (as the original moderators moved on) I mostly inherited admin responsibilities, partly because (at times) there simply wasn't anyone else. Other moderators are needed for when I'm not available (asleep, distracted, ...) and/or in the hope they'll step up if I die, and because (at times) the forum can be too much for one person's spare time.

Antti wrote:
Could you remove my moderator status because that status seems to be worth nothing? It would clear up the situation a little bit. The community would not falsely though that this forum is moderated by a team of moderators.


Moderator status means you have the ability to moderate normal members, clean up spam, etc; and means you're more likely to be respected by others (including me). These things have never changed; and (excluding times when I've been the only moderator) the forums are moderated by a team (mostly consisting of me being the only one that can be relied on to do the work regularly, while others help out when they are able, which is mostly how things have been for the last decade).

Antti wrote:
A very sad day. :(


Yes - sadder than you could know. I don't really want you to make it worse, so I'm asking if you're willing to wait 1 week before deciding if you really want to step down.


Cheers,

Brendan

_________________
For all things; perfection is, and will always remain, impossible to achieve in practice. However; by striving for perfection we create things that are as perfect as practically possible. Let the pursuit of perfection be our guide.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Antti wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Note that I don't have peers. All other moderators were appointed by me; and it's unlikely that any other moderators want to become innocent casualties of your futile little war.


You appointed me in 2014 but I thought that you were a moderator just like others and chase owned the forum. Could you remove my moderator status because that status seems to be worth nothing? It would clear up the situation a little bit. The community would not falsely though that this forum is moderated by a team of moderators.

A very sad day. :(


I have been a moderator of Mega-Tokyo and later Osdev.org since 2003. That predates you, Brendan.

Until recently I've seen you as one of the most prolific contributors to the site. I hold you in high regard; you have substantiated opinions, you have a clear goal and you are open to answering to new people and experienced people alike.

This discussion, and I'm not going to pick a side, is a flamewar back and forth. You are both reacting to the slight jabs from the other side like you've been attacked with a tactical nuke.

Solar in this case is less to be blamed than you, as he is *not* a moderator _by his own choice_, and you *are* a moderator. Solar was moderator at Mega-tokyo since 2002 (predating me there) but chose to put down the moderator function as he both didn't have time and wanted the liberty to speak at ease. That gives him a few points he can burn with me - he has clearly shown he is capable of understanding how a moderator should behave, and he knows that it is not an honorary role but a functional role where you must exercise restraint.

Brendan, I am fine with giving both of you a timeout. I am not fine with you lording over other forum members in a threatening way, making derogatory harmful comments and acting like a four year old. I have a four year old at home, I do not need another one here, and I know you're old enough to know you're acting like one. Please remove moderator status from one of us. I'll let you (or preferably Chase) pick.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Hi,

Candy wrote:
I have been a moderator of Mega-Tokyo and later Osdev.org since 2003. That predates you, Brendan.

Until recently I've seen you as one of the most prolific contributors to the site. I hold you in high regard; you have substantiated opinions, you have a clear goal and you are open to answering to new people and experienced people alike.

This discussion, and I'm not going to pick a side, is a flamewar back and forth. You are both reacting to the slight jabs from the other side like you've been attacked with a tactical nuke.

Solar in this case is less to be blamed than you, as he is *not* a moderator _by his own choice_, and you *are* a moderator. Solar was moderator at Mega-tokyo since 2002 (predating me there) but chose to put down the moderator function as he both didn't have time and wanted the liberty to speak at ease. That gives him a few points he can burn with me - he has clearly shown he is capable of understanding how a moderator should behave, and he knows that it is not an honorary role but a functional role where you must exercise restraint.

Brendan, I am fine with giving both of you a timeout. I am not fine with you lording over other forum members in a threatening way, making derogatory harmful comments and acting like a four year old. I have a four year old at home, I do not need another one here, and I know you're old enough to know you're acting like one. Please remove moderator status from one of us. I'll let you (or preferably Chase) pick.


I too was hoping it would blow over, but Solar kept escalating until there was no choice.

I ask of you the same as Antti - are you willing to wait 1 week before deciding if you really want to step down?


Cheers,

Brendan

_________________
For all things; perfection is, and will always remain, impossible to achieve in practice. However; by striving for perfection we create things that are as perfect as practically possible. Let the pursuit of perfection be our guide.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Brendan wrote:
I too was hoping it would blow over, but Solar kept escalating until there was no choice.

I ask of you the same as Antti - are you willing to wait 1 week before deciding if you really want to step down?


This situation and your past behavior will not have been changed. I stand by what I said.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Hi,

Candy wrote:
Brendan wrote:
I too was hoping it would blow over, but Solar kept escalating until there was no choice.

I ask of you the same as Antti - are you willing to wait 1 week before deciding if you really want to step down?


This situation and your past behavior will not have been changed. I stand by what I said.


That's a pity - you were a good moderator back when you were active.


Thanks,

Brendan

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For all things; perfection is, and will always remain, impossible to achieve in practice. However; by striving for perfection we create things that are as perfect as practically possible. Let the pursuit of perfection be our guide.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:48 pm 
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I don't have time to look closely into this matter (lots of other stuff in my life taking precedence over the forums alas) (full disclosure, I was prompted to go and have at this topic), but I did read the thread originally linked here. Brendan, I don't think you conducted yourself professionally. While I tend to agree with many of your opinions raised there, I don't like the extremism of your statements. I especially don't appreciate your insensitive uses of the word 'retard', which is a poor word to use in the first place, but you also used it as an insult. I don't appreciate your 'secretary' comments. It takes two to escalate, and you let this escalate and hijacked the topic.

You say you inherited admin, but I still remember that you unilaterally locked all of the moderators out of the admin account, which until then had been shared by all of us. Granted, you have taken the day to day responsibilities for the site since many of us has been absent, which is fine and good. Unfortunately I don't have the time to review the moderation here on the forums, which is a key part of keeping all of us moderators accountable.

I see in the moderation logs that posts are routinely deleted rather than moved to the /dev/null forum. This is not a good practice in my opinion, as it makes reviews harder.

Are there any other moderators active these days that know more? I only have a few glimpes. I see a few different moderators here and there in the moderation logs over months.

So my ask for now is to conduct yourself more professionally. Note that abusers tend to ask this in bad faith, and I don't personally have any sympathy towards abusers, but I mean it sincerely.

I don't have any opinion on Solar at the moment and yield to the rest of the moderation staff.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:20 pm 
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Hi,

sortie wrote:
You say you inherited admin, but I still remember that you unilaterally locked all of the moderators out of the admin account, which until then had been shared by all of us. Granted, you have taken the day to day responsibilities for the site since many of us has been absent, which is fine and good. Unfortunately I don't have the time to review the moderation here on the forums, which is a key part of keeping all of us moderators accountable.


I say I've inherited the role of admin (e.g. managing the nomination and promotion of new moderators, etc), mostly due to seniority/attrition. Access to the admin account (but not the role of admin) was given by Chase to the moderators that were around in 2009, with the advice "If you guys decide it'd be better for only a single person to have access to this account then you should vote on who should have access and that person should change the password and hand off the account when he is no longer active". Of the moderators from that time ("you guys") most are not active and/or stepped down since (including AJ who returned after stepping down).

Despite this, usually moderators have access to the admin account, partly because I don't like "single point of failure" (in case I die unexpectedly), partly because it's occasionally useful (e.g. fixing registration email issues when I'm not available), and rarely because it's necessary (e.g. during the "Andrew attack" last year). This poses some security risks (e.g. on IRC I've seen an attacker claiming to be a former moderator gaining full moderation privileges), but when things are calm the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks.

sortie wrote:
I see in the moderation logs that posts are routinely deleted rather than moved to the /dev/null forum. This is not a good practice in my opinion, as it makes reviews harder.


Ideally, yes, posts would be moved to the /dev/null forum. In practice it's a compromise between convenience and the chance of wanting it for future reference.

Note that if you look at the moderator logs you'll see that the only post I've deleted in the last few days is one that was reported as spam by a normal member (that was spam). For other deletions; most are people creating posts and then deleting their own post without any moderator involvement (which Solar did twice, DiggDug did once, and midonator1305 did 3 times); and AJ deleted some obvious spam.

The only other one was Antti deleting a post that Solar created in the "Esoteric programming languages" topic (that contained nothing more than a link to this topic to get my attention) after it would've been obvious to Antti that the post had served its purpose and had become merely off-topic. Unfortunately Solar didn't realise this and reposted exactly the same thing (and may have blamed me for deleting the original).

Mostly, the chance of wanting any of this for future reference is negligible and it's hard to say that the inconvenience of moving posts was justified for any of these cases.


Cheers,

Brendan

_________________
For all things; perfection is, and will always remain, impossible to achieve in practice. However; by striving for perfection we create things that are as perfect as practically possible. Let the pursuit of perfection be our guide.


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 Post subject: Re: @Brendan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Banning a valueble member of this community (Solar) is not the right decision (by any stretch of the imagination).

I noted that chase has been online and read the discussion. It seems that you are good friends and if he did not take any action on this, there would be no way to change the direction of this community. What will happen if things get worse in the future? Do we have any guarantee. You have liked so much concepts like "formal process" and "score" when it comes to technical things. Those concepts are not used here at all.

Now that Candy was removed from the moderator list and "the door is still open", there are no good reasons for being associated with the moderator team. Besides I have been used my moderator privileges so rarely that it is not a big loss. The only good reason (assuming I was being trusted by the community but that would be impossible for me to verify) for being on the list was that people felt that it was a team of moderators, e.g. moderators themselves could be moderated.

Please don't ban me though because I still have some use for private messages.

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