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 Post subject: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:17 pm 
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nexos wrote:
This thread is not the place to discuss zaval and his trolling actions. I admit, I was rubbed the wrong way by his accusatory first post to Dayimo. He (sort of) made up to Dayimo, however. He has a lot of knowledge about UEFI and OSDev to offer. Anyway, if you want to go on about zaval, start a new thread.

So here goes the separate thread.
I agree he knows a lot. Unfortunately he becomes unfair and personal. I wish he would simply concentrate on his knowledge. And others are not perfect, too. I fear I might become insulting, too, if I had to read zaval's postings.

Some folks here should relax more when opposite opinions arise. Not every discussion has to be "won". Even if the discussion partner is wrong.

Greetings
Peter

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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:33 pm 
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PeterX wrote:
Some folks here should relax more when opposite opinions arise. Not every discussion has to be "won". Even if the discussion partner is wrong.

I agree completely. In the world, but especially in the coding world, everyone thinks their opinion is "right". I'll be the first to admit that I am not always right, looking back at a thread where bzt and I discussed microkernels, I am able to admit that bzt was right. And he changed my POV on microkernels. I will also admit I have been right in some discussions as well. It appears that not just Zaval, but many other members have a very high opinion of their opinions on this forum. This was the problem with Brendan. Although I have my opinion about the Brendan banning, he expressed his opinions to strongly, and in the process bullied, and got banned. Many people on this forum are similar, and that is one reason why we have been losing contributors...

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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:36 pm 
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PeterX wrote:
Not every discussion has to be "won".
Please don't take this insulting or any kind of attack, I'm just curious. Your phrasing "won" suggests that this is some kind of competition or game. Why do you think that? I've never thought of a discussion as such. For me the only purpose of a discussion is to uncover the truth. Again, I'm not attacking you, sorry if this question might feel offending, I can assure you, that's not the case.

I've said this many times, but for me this is never about who's right, it's always about what's right. I do apologize if I was too opinionated with someone (I know I can be, and I'm really sorry).

Cheers,
bzt


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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:45 pm 
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bzt wrote:
I've said this many times, but for me this is never about who's right, it's always about what's right. I do apologize if I was too opinionated with someone (I know I can be, and I'm really sorry).

Yes, but sometimes stubborn people should keep their opinion and learn the hard way. Also, we can all be a bit opinionated at times.

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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:27 pm 
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bzt wrote:
I've said this many times, but for me this is never about who's right, it's always about what's right.

The problem here is who gets to define what is right. What if someone else's right doesn't match what you think is right? Then what?

Life is not black and white. Things are not wrong or right in the absolute.

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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:06 pm 
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I would like to say that I've never considered Zaval to be a troll of any sort. He is intelligent and has strong convictions, which I think is valuable for the forum, and admirable in general. The problem is that he has a combative manner and is rude to those who do not accept his positions as fact. This seems to be very common in our field, particularly online.

Zaval rarely uses personal insults though and he doesn't break any of the rules of the forum, moreover, he is often correct, or at least has a valuable opinion. For these reasons I do think he is a net positive for the forum. As for everyone else, there are so many people out there in the world who will be rude to you for reasons out of your control, but what you can control is your emotional reaction to it. Don't let them get to you. Otherwise, as mentioned, the "foe" list exists for a reason.

I will say this is a very different situation from Brendan who used his mod powers as a cudgel to attack and threaten people who disagreed with him.


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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:08 pm 
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StudlyCaps wrote:
I will say this is a very different situation from Brendan who used his mod powers as a cudgel to attack and threaten people who disagreed with him.

Perhaps, but who's to say Zaval, or several other people here, wouldn't do the same?

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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:35 pm 
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nexos wrote:
Perhaps, but who's to say Zaval, or several other people here, wouldn't do the same?

I'm afraid I don't quite understand your point. Zaval isn't a mod so they should only be judged by their actions as a poster. The whole point of mods is that power over other posters comes with the responsibility to use that power well. It is my opinion that a mod abusing their power and a regular poster being rude are very different situations.


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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:50 am 
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To add my two cents to this topic, I think that some people should just stop considering this forum as a place for crusades - not that I'm not saying that I'm always right or that I can't accept the truth, because I would be more than happy to be wrong (and that's what makes people improve!) - but there are terms, words and ways to tell it in a non arrogant way when someone says something that's not correct.

I'm a very sensitive person (and I'm really sorry but I can't change this because I was born with this particularity), so reading this kind of response was very bewildering for me - it was enough for me. I just had the really bad impression that someone is going to scream at you the instant you're writing the first character of a sentence that's not correct, and it's really oppressing :(

Consequently, it's not very surprising that people are leaving this forum because they're just tired, they're not motivated anymore and they're just sick of the behaviour of some users against people who are trying to help :?


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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:01 am 
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When I had my run-in with Brendan back then, for me it wasn't about the mod privilege abuse at all. It was about the bullying, which I tend to stand up to on general principles, but am also far from invulnerable against myself. (Which is part of why I stand up to it whenever I can, because there might be a day when I cannot, and need somebody else to step in.)

There is absolutely no reason to excuse yourself when something aggressive, insinuating, or otherwise hurtful somebody says (or writes) actually hits home. That doesn't make you a "snowflake", or a weak person. It makes you human. And while I am not advocating making everything sacrosanct, PC, and comfy-feely, I am certainly in favor of telling people to be civil to each other when they need the reminder now and then.

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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:32 am 
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I'm very uncomfortable with threads like this. To my mind they amount to bullying.

Address the guy face-to-face if you need to, but ganging up on an individual like this disturbs me.


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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:48 am 
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iansjack wrote:
I'm very uncomfortable with threads like this. To my mind they amount to bullying.

Address the guy face-to-face if you need to, but ganging up on an individual like this disturbs me.
+1

Very little is going to be gained from it. To wit, zaval has yet to even write anything himself. if I were him, I wouldn't. What's the point? You've apparently all made your minds up, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:35 pm 
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iansjack wrote:
I'm very uncomfortable with threads like this. To my mind they amount to bullying.

You're right. I am more or less not talking just about zaval. It's been a problem with many people here. Now that you say this iansjack, I am leaving this thread :) .

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 Post subject: My own point of view on the forum
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:16 pm 
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I am not agreeing on the fact that the title and first post of this topic was deliberately written in a such way that encourages ganging up and bullying. PeterX may, for sure, not have chosen the correct words to address the problem, but I'm pretty sure this was not made on purpose - but rather because of tiredness & in the sake of pointing onto a problem that's been lasting over time.

When it comes to my own response I didn't at a single moment target him personally. This is why I wrote "some users". It's not just him (from what I've seen since I've joined this forum) but a group of users that seem to not have tact when it comes to rectifying information. It's never good to consider someone as if it was ignorant or denying the truth, especially if the person in question is trying to just give some help - and that's I've seen on multiple posts across this forum. This is why I decided at one point that it was enough, because I can't just ignore this kind of behaviour and something had to be done because it affected multiple people on this forum. I tried to make a point here to reason the concerned people by inherently saying "Hey, this is maybe a bit too harsh for people that are trying to help, isn't it?"

"But why didn't you just privately talk about it?" to which I would respond that you got to have the guts to do it, especially if you're fearful of the person - and that would be, IRL, literally saying "Go talk privately to the one who's bullying you then instead of whining publicly!". So saying that there's no point to this is like encouraging this kind of behaviour, which is a bit sad because I just want a place where people are free to express their ideas and opinions about different subjects without getting externally pressured by specific people (I'm not saying that there is a point to deliberately target someone about something; when I say that I'm actually referring to my own posts only).

But anyways, I think the best thing to do is now to move on - at least I've said what I had in my mind for the past week.


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 Post subject: Re: Zaval, others and me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:25 pm 
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crosssans wrote:
When it comes to my own response I didn't at a single moment target him personally. This is why I wrote "some users". It's not just him (from what I've seen since I've joined this forum) but a group of users that seem to not have tact when it comes to rectifying information.

Exactly. That is what I am trying to say as well. It's a set of problems. The quality of posts to new people isn't as good as I would like it to be for example. Zaval isn't the problem at all. I think this thread should be renamed. I am not disscusing Zaval, rather, an ongoing problem on this forum. crosssans just brought it to light in his first post to zaval. Once more, in no way am I targeting Zaval. This is just a general problem.

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