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 Post subject: 9/11
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:33 pm 
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well, I just got back from a week-long vacation in Maryland. I got to see my family, but the main reason I was down there was for the September 11th memorial at the Pentagon. It was a spectacular event that lasted about 2 hours and was held right in front of the Pentagon. President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, (I think) all of the supreme court judges, and Donald Rumsfeld were all there. There were also alot of other high-ranking officials from both the political world and the military world. All-in-all it was a great event that I was glad I attended (as my grandfather was one of the victims).

That was my vacation, now it's time to return to development. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:12 pm 
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Location: Unknown. Momentum is pretty certain, however.
Sounds very happy.
For 9/11, my school walked across the street to the zoo. Apparently the animals don't care much about 9/11

-JL

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:03 pm 
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piranha wrote:
For 9/11, my school walked across the street to the zoo. Apparently the animals don't care much about 9/11

That...confuses me. What happened to the simple moment of silence?

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:10 pm 
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Location: Unknown. Momentum is pretty certain, however.
Well, I didn't talk for a while during English, when my teacher described how every direction was East.

OK, so my school went a little overboard. I'm ok with it.

-JL

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:38 pm 
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I have not been able to watch that video you posted with sound, but I have a feeling it is disrespectful. There are always a few people like that in the world I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:56 pm 
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01000101 wrote:
I have not been able to watch that video you posted with sound, but I have a feeling it is disrespectful. There are always a few people like that in the world I suppose.

It's actually rather interesting, that is, how much music can change one's perception on things. (If only temporary.)

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:57 am 
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Everything is a matter of perspective.

Body count (civilians) at WTC on 2001-09-11: ~2800
Body count (US soldiers) in Iraq since the "end" of the war: ~2900
Body count (Iraq security personell) in Iraq since the "end" of the war: ~3500
Traffic deaths (US) in 2007: ~41000

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:15 am 
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Solar wrote:
Everything is a matter of perspective.

Body count (civilians) at WTC on 2001-09-11: ~2800
Body count (US soldiers) in Iraq since the "end" of the war: ~2900
Body count (Iraq security personell) in Iraq since the "end" of the war: ~3500
Traffic deaths (US) in 2007: ~41000


So that makes it an insignificant/unimportant happening? I believe a more critical point would be to say that the first count was a national tragedy, the second and third were an act of preserving national freedom, and the last is a completely unrelated fact that has many reasons behind its high count that ranges from self-stupidity (drinking then driving, speeding for show, on the phone, etc...) to accidents. In my opinion, that was a very large stretch for the sake of perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:33 am 
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01000101 wrote:
Solar wrote:
Everything is a matter of perspective.

Body count (civilians) at WTC on 2001-09-11: ~2800
Body count (US soldiers) in Iraq since the "end" of the war: ~2900
Body count (Iraq security personell) in Iraq since the "end" of the war: ~3500
Traffic deaths (US) in 2007: ~41000


So that makes it an insignificant/unimportant happening? I believe a more critical point would be to say that the first count was a national tragedy, the second and third were an act of preserving national freedom, and the last is a completely unrelated fact that has many reasons behind its high count that ranges from self-stupidity (drinking then driving, speeding for show, on the phone, etc...) to accidents. In my opinion, that was a very large stretch for the sake of perspective.

Sure, it was a stretch. I agree with you there. Let's, then look at some more closely related statistics.

--------
"The War on Terror":

Body count (civilians) at WTC on 2001-09-11: ~2800
Body count (US soldiers) in Iraq since the "end" of the war: ~2900
Body count (Iraq security personell) in Iraq since the "end" of the war: ~3500

Total: ~9,200 deaths in order to preserve national freedom.

--------
"The American revolutionary war" (from wikipedia):

American
7,174 KIA
10,000 Killed from Disease

French
10,000 KIA

Spanish
5,000 Killed, Wounded or Captured

Dutch
500 Killed, Wounded, or Captured

Civillians
6,186 Killed

Total: 22,674 Killed, Wounded or Captured in Action

--------

I understand that not all 22,674 of those statistics were for people who were killed, but regardless, It seems that preserving freedom has (so far) cost far fewer lives than it took to have that freedom in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:39 pm 
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Okay,

The War on Terror...
but nobody mentioned the killd Iraqi civilians which are more than half Million people,
take a look at this
count of iraqis Immigrants ~ 4.5 million take a look at this

Also nobody mentioned Afghanistan,take a look
this is very very bad numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:48 pm 
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01000101 wrote:
So that makes it an insignificant/unimportant happening?


Didn't say that. I just think it's blown out of proportion because it's been so traumatic for the US ("attacked on own territory").

Quote:
I believe a more critical point would be to say that the first count was a national tragedy...


100% agreed.

Quote:
...the second and third were an act of preserving national freedom...


I disagree. Knowledge today indicates that Iraq and Hussein - a person brought to power and armed by the US government - had little to nothing to do with 9/11, and didn't pose a significant threat to the US or its allies at the time.

And, while I can't root this in statistical fact ad-hoc, personally I feel the hostility towards, not only the US but the "western world" as a whole, has increased with Iraq and Afghanistan. This goes hand-in-hand with a number of security laws passed in many western "democracies" that I enjoy to believe would have resulted in an outrage back in the good old times when "we" were the "good ones" (free, liberal, progressive) and the "bad ones" (restricted, censored, oppressive ones) were the USSR.

You see, I tend to take a rather differentiated view on the whole thing.

Quote:
...the last is a completely unrelated fact that has many reasons behind its high count...


How big is...

  • the chance that your kid is killed by terrorists?
  • the chance that your kid grows up in a much more restrictive, censored, and state-controlled environment than you did?
  • the chance that your kid is run over by a careless driver?
  • the amount of tax money spent by your government to alter those chances?

Quote:
In my opinion, that was a very large stretch for the sake of perspective.


Everything is a matter of perspective. That is a view that denies you any easy answers, but it's also a view that allows you to put things into perspective.

@ abushraf:

I did not quote those numbers on purpose, as they are too controversial in my eyes. For example, most sources do not distinguish between civilians killed by US troops as "collateral damage", those killed by what the US calls "insurgents" as "collateral damage", and those deliberately killed by terrorist bombings / shootings. Too many categories to be put into one number and layed at the feet of those who - justifiably - mourn their losses of 9/11.

That, too, is a matter of perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:50 pm 
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abuashraf wrote:
Okay,

The War on Terror...
but nobody mentioned the killd Iraqi civilians which are more than half Million people,
take a look at this
count of iraqis Immigrants ~ 4.5 million take a look at this

Also nobody mentioned Afghanistan,take a look
this is very very bad numbers.
They're the enemy, what does it matter how many we kill?


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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:52 pm 
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@ lollynoob:

Go play with something hazardous, will you?

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:25 pm 
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Quote:
...the second and third were an act of preserving national freedom...

We needed someone to blame and punish. Violence for violence. If that meant killing more US citizens than were killed in 911, so be it.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:27 pm 
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Quote:
They're the enemy, what does it matter how many we kill?

Oh my God, I didn't know that respect could fall below zero, thank you for clarifying that matter.

When you were born, no, spawned by the Dark Prince himself, did that rat bastard forget to give you a hug before he sent you on your way?
--Scrubs

The gist of your post(s): If it doesn't matter who dies of they're the enemy, then everyone but you should be dead.
Reality: Picture the opposite of above.

Edit: On Topic: I believe that the death tolls are important, however the number of people who die in car accidents is different because thats internal problems, with one person who made a mistake (most of the time).

Thanks for playing, -JL

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