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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:28 pm 
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simeonz wrote:
~ wrote:
Hard disks have a register file, a set of contiguous registers.

PCI has registers.

VGA has registers.
I wouldn't make parallels with those, as they are similar only in name.
But they are like the CPU registers. The ATA disks have a sector count like WIDECX, 28 or 48-bit address registers like WIDESI or WIDEDI, they have a device bit for master/slave ATA like a segment register. They have error registers like the exception mechanism of the CPU, but since the hard disk has no access to the stack in RAM, it has to pass the errors via register bits.

So it makes me think that the intention of the CPU registers, or the registers of any other device for that matter, are intended not only so that you set them, but so that external devices can access the CPU registers. Maybe the first PC developers thought that they could have the CPU access the registers of other devices (achieved) and also have other external devices access and even modify the CPU registers (I don't know if they achieved it or if the best we have so far is altering the state by ourselves on IRQs or polling).

It looks like registers make the actual implementation of the CPU or any device's architecture, much more architecture-independent and interoperable.

I think you need to find out what the very first developers of the CPU were thinking when they decided to invent registers and not other structure to hold state.

Then no matter how many registers we have, they wish they are public, but also things like the cache they wish they are private. It could be good to make that configurable.

But in the case of having 1 Megabyte of registers, it would probably be better to sell RAM chips that are as fast as the best caches, or faster, or start selling CPUs with at least 4 Gigabytes of user RAM into them of the quality of cache or general-purpose-register memory. That should compensate the lack of registers and speed. Such CPUs, currently considered custom-made for private customers, probably exist for crucial and special-interest applications, like any scientific application, the most common probably being NASA and robotics, factories, banks...

Maybe the faster the CPU, the better the quality of its internal memory, registers and core, so that's why there must be a consumer speed limit due to those things and price.

As you can see, the more you use than just registers, the more the manufacturers have to open their full architecture informat to the developers in the public, so probably it's also because they don't want to do it at least at this time.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:35 am 
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OK, this is turning into a little bit of a problem.

The OP can't even say because. Also, there are many mistakes he/she has done. First, x86 is not hard. You just haven't done effort towards it. The instruction set is fine. The reference (part of the manual) is simple to read. The reason x86 seems complex is because it has a lot. Sure, you're not gonna understand everything in the manual but make effort. x86 has been well designed. Intel have made a good job. Are you going to expect them to keep MOV, ADD, SUB and CMP forever? They need to add OR, AND, PUSH, POP, LODSB, XOR and lots more. Are they going to keep 16 bit or are they going to add 32 bit? Are they going to keep the 16 and 8 bit general purpose registers?

The OP just hasn't taken the time to learn anything. Why don't you learn 6502 Assembly with STD and LDA? Yeah, I'm sure someone is going to even try out your OS, as I say sarcastically.

Your ideas are not gonna work anyway, especially when you're making something for another architecture that not many use.

If I saw a project, I would probably try it out in a virtual machine. If this project asked for money or for me to buy another computer, I wouldn't even bother.

Like the Wiki says, your little project isn't going to land you a job. Selling it?

Alreday? Becouse? Ignoratly?

Also, you can't make a fully working OS in a month. Why? Have you forgot about bugs?

You encourage the use of Real Mode (16 bit). It's good to start with using BIOS interrupts but not forever. You can only access a few megabytes of RAM (not even enough for Linux). It is important you get to Protected Mode (32 bit) and learn about that.

These are all dreams. Live in the real world.

"i am goin too make a os that has voice recognition and artifishal intellagence! i cant rite so good".

All your ideas sound very nice but seriously? The best projects would be KolibriOS or MenuetOS but are they mentioned much? No. Do they have a large base of users? No. Do you hear about these projects being used by Google, IBM or Microsoft? Is there a Java that Oracle made for these projects? No.

This has only caused a fight. None of your ideas are valid. Learn x86. Trust me, it will work out. It takes time but it's worth it. Wouldn't we all like to make the next Linux, macOS (OS X) or Windows? Sorry, there isn't a good chance of that.

No offense (offence) but your thread looks childish. Sorry. I don't like any of what you have written. I do not agree with it.


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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:48 am 
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stevewoods1986 wrote:
No offense

if this were the no offense model, i am curious how the offense type would look like.

stevewoods1986 wrote:
These are all dreams. Live in the real world.

sorry, but if you really want to live in the real world, you basically dont even start to do an operating system for x86

stevewoods1986 wrote:
i am goin too make a os that has voice recognition and artifishal intellagence! i cant rite so good

those kind of things are not my deamons

stevewoods1986 wrote:
None of your ideas are valid.

you are free to do any kind of os with any kind of ideas to proove if they valid or not. if you cant proove them, you are childish.

stevewoods1986 wrote:
Learn x86. Trust me, it will work out.

please list me all of the x86 binary opcodes required to boot windows xp with all possible cpu mode, prefix, segmentation method, results from bit to bit, including every modifyed flags, an example transistor implementation for each of the opcodes, special cases, including possible interrupts WITHOUT any manual by tomorrow, directly from your memories, as you alreday have learned it, and it worked out for you. please try to keep it below 2 million A4 page as i dont like to read that much. if you are not able to do this, please dont even reply to this comment, i will not care.

ps, did you even realise your ,,operating system'' you are posted screenshots about are writing out its text through a 40 year old pc compatibility vga bios cycle? if you think this tutorial is so flawed, then why your os is even folowing it? you probably basically not even seen the technologies you are advertising in your reply.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Geri wrote:
stevewoods1986 wrote:
No offense

if this were the no offense model, i am curious how the offense type would look like.

stevewoods1986 wrote:
These are all dreams. Live in the real world.

sorry, but if you really want to live in the real world, you basically dont even start to do an operating system for x86

stevewoods1986 wrote:
i am goin too make a os that has voice recognition and artifishal intellagence! i cant rite so good

those kind of things are not my deamons

stevewoods1986 wrote:
None of your ideas are valid.

you are free to do any kind of os with any kind of ideas to proove if they valid or not. if you cant proove them, you are childish.

Your writing is terrible.

stevewoods1986 wrote:
Learn x86. Trust me, it will work out.

please list me all of the x86 binary opcodes required to boot windows xp with all possible cpu mode, prefix, segmentation method, results from bit to bit, including every modifyed flags, an example transistor implementation for each of the opcodes, special cases, including possible interrupts WITHOUT any manual by tomorrow, directly from your memories, as you alreday have learned it, and it worked out for you. please try to keep it below 2 million A4 page as i dont like to read that much. if you are not able to do this, please dont even reply to this comment, i will not care.

ps, did you even realise your ,,operating system'' you are posted screenshots about are writing out its text through a 40 year old pc compatibility vga bios cycle? if you think this tutorial is so flawed, then why your os is even folowing it? you probably basically not even seen the technologies you are advertising in your reply.


That's easy. All you need is a hex editor and see if the opcodes work. Anyone can find value 90 in a program. All you need is a hex dump.

Why is my OS following your tutorial? You haven't even made one in x86.

At least I have better writing than you. The words below doesn't look much compared to 235886 words. However, you have misspelled quite a lot. Why is that? You know, English is not like x86.

Misspelled words
tousands, carater, becouse, excpet, suprised, decrase, percomance, prety, aniway, beethwen, alreday, begining, entrie, folowing, modifyed, proove, deamons, univerities, extrwemely, engineere, lenght, randmly, mempry, descripbes, anwser, amout, feture, ignoratly, nowdays, programmng, runned, substract, choosed, diferents.

Corrected words
thousands, character, because, except, surprised, decrease, performance, pretty, anyway, between, already, beginning, entire, following, modified, prove, demons, universities, extremely, engineer, length, randomly, memory, describes, answer, amount, feature, ignorantly, nowadays, programming, ran, subtract, chosen, differences.

Your sentence construction as well is terrible.


Last edited by stevewoods1986 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:02 pm 
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stevewoods1986 wrote:
That's easy. All you need is a hex editor and see if the opcodes work.


so you have no idea even from the x86-s varying instruction lenght.
x86 is a hardware obfuscator, you dont know where the next instruction begins without decoding it.
you can have 3 type of prefix * 8 register * 400 operation encoded on 1 or 2 byte length * 2*(256+256) type of segmentation, then 8, 16 or 32 byte segment data, and additional instruction data = 2*9830400 instruction variation, but thats easy if you have a hex editor. ok, i stop, you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.


stevewoods1986 wrote:
Why is my OS following your tutorial? You haven't even made one in x86.


then who wrote this tutorial? *confused*

stevewoods1986 wrote:
At least I have better writing than you.


this is not englishfanficwriters.org

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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:37 am 
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Geri wrote:
stevewoods1986 wrote:
That's easy. All you need is a hex editor and see if the opcodes work.


so you have no idea even from the x86-s varying instruction lenght.
x86 is a hardware obfuscator, you dont know where the next instruction begins without decoding it.
you can have 3 type of prefix * 8 register * 400 operation encoded on 1 or 2 byte length * 2*(256+256) type of segmentation, then 8, 16 or 32 byte segment data, and additional instruction data = 2*9830400 instruction variation, but thats easy if you have a hex editor. ok, i stop, you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.


stevewoods1986 wrote:
Why is my OS following your tutorial? You haven't even made one in x86.


then who wrote this tutorial? *confused*

stevewoods1986 wrote:
At least I have better writing than you.


this is not englishfanficwriters.org


Well, you can disassemble for the most accurate code then. I said you haven't made one IN x86. Your tutorial is terrible. It is the worst. It's a scrambled egg.

Intel x86 is really the best you can get. x86 is not bad. You have given the wrong example. You're only failing even more as you post here. The reason x86 needs instructions, registers and tables is because they help with optimization, security and stability. Other architectures are probably buggy and limited.

Why don't we just learn 6502 Assembly? Will you be happy then?

Your writing is terrible. It's OK to have a few spelling mistakes but you have done it multiple times. You have done it excessively. I've even updated my last post with more!

dont? What about don't? You don't have to be an expert but you have done giant amounts of misspelled words. Tens of words! You have done tens of spelling mistakes. We can't figure out what you mean if you keep doing this. Look at our writing. It might not be perfect but it is OK. Why?

Misspelled words
tousands, carater, becouse, excpet, suprised, decrase, percomance, prety, aniway, beethwen, alreday, begining, entrie, folowing, modifyed, proove, deamons, univerities, extrwemely, engineere, lenght, randmly, mempry, descripbes, anwser, amout, feture, ignoratly, nowdays, programmng, runned, substract, choosed, diferents.

Corrected words
thousands, character, because, except, surprised, decrease, performance, pretty, anyway, between, already, beginning, entire, following, modified, prove, demons, universities, extremely, engineer, length, randomly, memory, describes, answer, amount, feature, ignorantly, nowadays, programming, ran, subtract, chosen, differences.


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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:00 am 
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Geri wrote:
mikegonta wrote:
Geri wrote:
well i did my bootable dawn emulator just with these principles within 1 month.
Link, please.


sorry, its made for a business


Why can't we have the link? Is it because we want to do this?
Code:
rm dawnos


You probably made your OS in a spreadsheet or a presentation.


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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:04 am 
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Geri wrote:
Brendan, if you think that text mode shits those can be copyed together with 5 minutes of googling are skycrapers just becouse they are loaded by the bios, meanwhile you think DawnOS is **** just becouse its not x86, and its not an os just becouse its not an x86 binary, and you thing its purely a trash becouse its not an x86 os, then your basic OS philosophy and principles are just flawed in a very extreme levels.

Quote:
80x86 is not obsolete. It has

it *has*
*has* means it done it in the past. so its obsolote, and yo acknowledging it externally. x86 dominates nothing. x86 era is ended.

Quote:
80x86 is complex because complexity is necessary for performance (...) If you look at ARM you'll find that it's also complex.

no, simplicity is necessary for performance. just look at asics. yes, arm is too complex. i alreday mentioned it in the tutorial.

Quote:
all evidence

evidence of what? most of the people who attack dawn os, does not even was able to show up even a text mode cursor blinker. at least i achieving my things, and i put efforts into writing tutorials, so others can work fast and have they goals achieved as well.

Quote:
To be able to sell an OS in any market

i am a very shitty business man, but i am still able to sell my OS and other works. to sell something (not just operating system) you need only two thing: the actual product that fills a demand, and a market, where you can sell it. but i dont want to argue about selling strategies, since i am not an expert on that. actually i am trying to improve my business man skills from time to time. selling something is just as difficult as creating the product.

Quote:
which only work on hardware provided by Apple

they sell the hardware and software together, they offer basically the whole computer. as an os, osx would not be viable, possibly it would have zero users after a time. so apple is not a software company like microsoft. microsoft windows 7 for example is even capable of running on 133 mhz cyrix cpus with 256 mbyte ram for compatibility reasons. if microsoft HAD to support those craps, then i guess you have to do it too. an advise to just do an os with gigabytes of needs, its basically a bad advice.

Quote:
For the same reason, if most OSs were optimised for touchscreen and single task operation then it does not mean that your OS should be like that

isnt this almost the same thing i wrote?
,,However, most OSs were not optimised for touchscreen or single task operation''
android alone makes more than 65% of the sales (70% on cell phones). when we count all the os ever made, then yes, touchstreen os-es are not as popular for historical reasons.

Quote:
virtual8086

the skills to implement it not fits into 1 month

Quote:
"Just use someone else's OS" is not a valid way to create an OS yourself; regardless of what that other OS is.

there is like 800 linux distribution.

Quote:
UEFI

irrelevant, it not exist on older hardware, so its cant be used

Quote:
On 80x86, a boot loader (even for legacy/BIOS) does not need to contain partition tables and should not contain partition tables

yes, it does. http://wiki.osdev.org/MBR_(x86)
the last few bytes of your boot loader is actually the partition table of your disk ,,MBR Partition Table, with 4 entries (below)
''

Quote:
holes

when you create an os, you should treat it as memory holes. a memory write there can cause crash of the system, or memory garbage on certain systems. you cant risk that just becouse if you think that in some case its maybe free to use.

Quote:
PS/2 keyboard may or may not be emulated depending on the computer and BIOS settings.

thats rights, this still not makes dawn to be a garbage i hope

Quote:
The "SMP startup code" you cut & pasted is an extremely fragile piece of trash that can only be used by extremely incompetent fools.

what smp code you would use?

Quote:
The PAUSE instruction either does not decrease power consumption at all or only decreases power consumption a tiny bit by accident. It is not what the PAUSE instruction is intended for.

1 month limit in the tutorial not makes possible to create more proper power savings.

Quote:
For incompetent people that are willing to accept inferior trash, "Int 0x1A, ah = 0x00" is a "less inferior" alternative

this is a very good idea, but why should you call the bios using people incompetent in the same sentence?


Can't even understand the beginning of your post. Businessman? Someone who badmouths a moderator? You are insulting a moderator? I would like to think someone is going to do something about you.


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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:23 am 
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stop spamming the thread. if you cant process loosing an argument, talk to a psychologist or a mental healtcare institution with confidence.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:09 am 
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stevewoods1986 wrote:
Intel x86 is really the best you can get. x86 is not bad. You have given the wrong example. You're only failing even more as you post here. The reason x86 needs instructions, registers and tables is because they help with optimization, security and stability. Other architectures are probably buggy and limited.


This is simply as an aside, but: I, and a lot of others in this forum, would strenuously object to this characterization, both of x86 and of platforms such as ARM or MIPS. I know of no one, Intel included, who would claim x86 is a good ISA design.

It is, however, a successful one, despite its limitations, because good design, while helpful, is not what makes a product successful. Even in 1981, when the PC was designed, far better - objectively better - microprocessor ISAs existed. None of them had two things that the x86 had, however: the backing of the biggest computer company on Earth, and the best set of silicon engineers on Earth.

The 8086 was never intended by Intel to be a long term product; they designed it as a 16-bit extension of the 8080, and meant it solely for use in embedded systems, and even then only until they could get their next-gen microprocessors designed and fabricated. They actually objected to IBM using the 8088 at first, but IBM thought it was a better price-point than the (decidedly superior) Motorola 68000, mainly because the 8088 could work with existing 8-bit hardware (the 8086 was 16-bit, but the 8088 was 8-bit external/16-bit internal, whereas the M68K was 16/32 and would have required more expensive 16-bit hardware for the bus and peripherals).

Big Blue - who at the time were known for business practices that were equal parts Don Corleone and Josef Stalin - essentially made Intel an offer they couldn't refuse. They may not have had a gun to their collective head, but they did know that IBM would turn around and drive them into the ground if they didn't play ball.

When it was clear to Intel that their workstation CPU, the i432, was a bust (despite having the best engineers - the design was big-CISC and way too ambitious for the fabrication technology of the time, Hell, they would be hard pressed to make it work even today), but the IBM PC built around the 8088 was a booming success, they basically acquiesced to the market and began slowly improving the x86 design. They have thrown a massive amount of work into making it fast and somewhat efficient, despite the designs obvious flaws.

At the same time, they have tried repeatedly to replace it with no success. The i860, i960, and Itanium were expensive disasters for them, not because they were bad designs (though the Itanic a pretty weak one, as they tried to do too many things and apply too many untested innovations and it never really came together) but because they weren't what the market wanted, which was 'keep running all the existing software at all costs'.

Just to repeat that point: even the creators of the x86 don't want the x86. That says a lot, I think.

Despite all of this, the x86, obsolete as a design or not (which it is, and was from the start, by design), it is far from dead. It is still the largest desktop platform in the world, and until a suitable successor comes along that doesn't force everyone to throw away every PC computer, and (more importantly) every Windows program written in the past 20 years, it will remain so.

The recent move by Microsoft to support Windows on the ARM may finally lead to this, but again, we've been here before; IBM tried emulation with the PowerPC based system, but those went over terribly in the market (in part because they effectively only ran OS/2, not Windows), while part of the reason Microsoft shifted to .NET (and earlier still, why Sun introduced Java and the JVM) was to divorce the software from the platform. Last I checked, Windows is still x86 native despite this (it is my understanding that they had intended to have everything except the CLR, JIT compiler, and low-level drivers running as 'managed code' by the time Vista was released).

This is what Geri keeps missing: even if OISC really were the technological breakthrough he thinks it is - which it isn't, not by a long shot - it still wouldn't have any real shot at replacing x86 for the desktop market, and not much of one at replacing ARM for the mobile market. If technical superiority were sufficient, we'd all have been running MIPS or SPARC - or better still, IMAO, LispMs - since the late 1980s.

TL;DR: It doesn't really matter whether x86 is good or not, because we're stuck with it for desktop systems until someone can dislodge the software market from it. The same applies to ARM for other kinds of systems - there really isn't any viable alternative, for reasons unrelated to the hardware itself.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Geri wrote:
stop spamming the thread. if you cant process loosing an argument, talk to a psychologist or a mental healtcare institution with confidence.


Sorry. I didn't spam it on purpose. Next time I'll just copy the quotes in, OK?

Quote:
7: Please try to behave
No spamming or advertising. No flaming. No obscenities. Don't provoke fights or participate in fights started by others. Windows vs linux and programming language battles have been fought many times and resulted in a draw every single time. After you've written a post, check to see if it's polite, professional and helpful; and if it's not then it'd be wise to rewrite it or delete it instead of sending it. If you feel that a post breaks these rules, do not reply to it. Please use the "report this post" link to alert the moderators.


Obscenities. Professional? Helpful? Polite? Let's ignore this thread, shall we?


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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:00 pm 
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@stevewoods1986 Do you even know the use of a language? It's to pass on information. If you manage to understand what the other person has said, then that goal has been reached, and so nobody cares about spelling mistakes.

Quote:
Intel x86 is really the best you can get


:shock:

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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:23 am 
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obiwac wrote:
Do you even know the use of a language? It's to pass on information. If you manage to understand what the other person has said, then that goal has been reached, and so nobody cares about spelling mistakes.
It becomes problematic if posts ignore good spelling and grammar so hard that understanding it requires reading it requires a great deal of concentration. Also, filling posts with profanity, personal attacks etc. doesn't help and goes against all standards of decency.

Can we all stop this nonsense now and behave like civilized human beings?

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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:51 am 
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***last post here***

no92 wrote:
ignore good spelling and grammar so hard that understanding it requires reading it requires a great deal of concentration


Agreed, but in this case I think it was readable.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make an operating system to x86 within a month fr
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:09 pm 
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obiwac wrote:
***last post here***

no92 wrote:
ignore good spelling and grammar so hard that understanding it requires reading it requires a great deal of concentration


Agreed, but in this case I think it was readable.


That's more a testament to the Shannon redundancy of the English language than to his writing, IMO.

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