That reminds me...inflater wrote:At least I know how it tastes to be a high voltage electrician.
Electricity experiments
Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
Hi,
When an inductor is connected to electricity it builds up a magnetic charge. If the electricity is disconnected while this magnetic charge is still present it retains this charge (and old TV coils can hold a magnetic charge for up to about 10 days - newer TV coils have built-in resistors to prevent them from holding the magnetic charge). When something (e.g. a moron) makes contact with the inductor the magnetic field collapses, resulting in a DC voltage - in your case, a relatively high DC voltage that drops extremely quickly to zero, which would feel similar to a large electro-static discharge.
I am a "low voltage" electrician (a licensed electrical contractor to be exact, which is similar to "electrician" except I can legally run my own business, bid for contracts, employ electricians and subcontractors, etc - a normal electrician is only licensed to do electrical work and can't do any of the other things). Around here it's 240 volt AC (single phase) and 415 volt AC (three phase). There's 2 major differences here. First, it's AC, which makes your muscles contract and relax in sync with the supply frequency (50 times per second around here). This means that if you grab live wires with your hand (for e.g.) you have no control over your grip and can't let go. It also places serious stress on your muscles, and can confuse the timer that keeps your heart beating (something called "fibrillation" can occur, where your heart fails to beat normally after the electricity is disconnected and you die within a five minutes after being disconnected from the electricity). The stress on the muscles is another problem - it weakens the muscle, and it can cause heart failure up to 24 hours later (even though you feel fine after the shock), which is why the OH&S (Occupational Health and Safety) laws here require you to spend 24 hours in hospital under observation after you've had an electric shock. The other difference is that there's nothing to limit the current - under short circuit conditions you get between 5000 and 45000 amps (usually extremely briefly, due to the use of circuit breakers and fuses at each level in the supply), but these circuit breakers and fuses won't interrupt the supply until there's enough current passing through them, and a human has sufficiently high resistance that there's never enough current passing through the circuit breakers/fuses (unlike your "collapsing magnetic field", which would run out of charge after about 10 ms).
Of course the low voltage supply comes from the secondary side of step-down transformers you see in the street.
"High voltage" is defined as 1000 volts AC or 1500 volts DC (or higher). Around here a "high voltage electrician" works with the voltages on the primary side of the step-down transformers you see on the street. This is 3500 volts or higher (going up to about 150000 volts). This is AC volts *without* current limiting (except for short-circuit protection, but with tens of thousands of volts and hundreds of thousands of amps you'll be a crispy corpse before the short-circuit protection has enough time to do anything - I'll let you work out how many watts). Also, at these voltages you don't need to touch the wires to get cremated - depending on voltage it can jump over a 70 mm air gap. That's why "high voltage electricians" have 2 meter long fiberglass handles on all their tools, and also why they make sure those handles are *spotlessly* clean.
The other thing I wanted to mention (in case you were thinking of doing something in this field as a career), is that you've probably blown your chances of getting a job (assuming you live that long). I employed several people ("trade assistants" mostly) when I was running my electrical contracting business, and I've interviewed potential employees enough times to know how it works. As soon as the potential employee says they did anything electrical themselves (e.g. installing their own power outlets) the interview stops and the interviewer (me) asks a few questions about the weather to be polite before saying those immortal words - "we'll let you know...". Basically anyone who lacks adequate respect for electricity (like you) is too much of a risk for anyone to employ or train. Think of it like this, if you were running a fireworks company and if you were responsible for the safety of your employees and the safety of your customers, would you employ someone that likes to play with matches?
Cheers,
Brendan
No, you don't.inflater wrote:At least I know how it tastes to be a high voltage electrician.
When an inductor is connected to electricity it builds up a magnetic charge. If the electricity is disconnected while this magnetic charge is still present it retains this charge (and old TV coils can hold a magnetic charge for up to about 10 days - newer TV coils have built-in resistors to prevent them from holding the magnetic charge). When something (e.g. a moron) makes contact with the inductor the magnetic field collapses, resulting in a DC voltage - in your case, a relatively high DC voltage that drops extremely quickly to zero, which would feel similar to a large electro-static discharge.
I am a "low voltage" electrician (a licensed electrical contractor to be exact, which is similar to "electrician" except I can legally run my own business, bid for contracts, employ electricians and subcontractors, etc - a normal electrician is only licensed to do electrical work and can't do any of the other things). Around here it's 240 volt AC (single phase) and 415 volt AC (three phase). There's 2 major differences here. First, it's AC, which makes your muscles contract and relax in sync with the supply frequency (50 times per second around here). This means that if you grab live wires with your hand (for e.g.) you have no control over your grip and can't let go. It also places serious stress on your muscles, and can confuse the timer that keeps your heart beating (something called "fibrillation" can occur, where your heart fails to beat normally after the electricity is disconnected and you die within a five minutes after being disconnected from the electricity). The stress on the muscles is another problem - it weakens the muscle, and it can cause heart failure up to 24 hours later (even though you feel fine after the shock), which is why the OH&S (Occupational Health and Safety) laws here require you to spend 24 hours in hospital under observation after you've had an electric shock. The other difference is that there's nothing to limit the current - under short circuit conditions you get between 5000 and 45000 amps (usually extremely briefly, due to the use of circuit breakers and fuses at each level in the supply), but these circuit breakers and fuses won't interrupt the supply until there's enough current passing through them, and a human has sufficiently high resistance that there's never enough current passing through the circuit breakers/fuses (unlike your "collapsing magnetic field", which would run out of charge after about 10 ms).
Of course the low voltage supply comes from the secondary side of step-down transformers you see in the street.
"High voltage" is defined as 1000 volts AC or 1500 volts DC (or higher). Around here a "high voltage electrician" works with the voltages on the primary side of the step-down transformers you see on the street. This is 3500 volts or higher (going up to about 150000 volts). This is AC volts *without* current limiting (except for short-circuit protection, but with tens of thousands of volts and hundreds of thousands of amps you'll be a crispy corpse before the short-circuit protection has enough time to do anything - I'll let you work out how many watts). Also, at these voltages you don't need to touch the wires to get cremated - depending on voltage it can jump over a 70 mm air gap. That's why "high voltage electricians" have 2 meter long fiberglass handles on all their tools, and also why they make sure those handles are *spotlessly* clean.
The other thing I wanted to mention (in case you were thinking of doing something in this field as a career), is that you've probably blown your chances of getting a job (assuming you live that long). I employed several people ("trade assistants" mostly) when I was running my electrical contracting business, and I've interviewed potential employees enough times to know how it works. As soon as the potential employee says they did anything electrical themselves (e.g. installing their own power outlets) the interview stops and the interviewer (me) asks a few questions about the weather to be polite before saying those immortal words - "we'll let you know...". Basically anyone who lacks adequate respect for electricity (like you) is too much of a risk for anyone to employ or train. Think of it like this, if you were running a fireworks company and if you were responsible for the safety of your employees and the safety of your customers, would you employ someone that likes to play with matches?
Cheers,
Brendan
For all things; perfection is, and will always remain, impossible to achieve in practice. However; by striving for perfection we create things that are as perfect as practically possible. Let the pursuit of perfection be our guide.
Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
Okay Brendan, you got me. 
Actually I don't have electricity as my hobby much. I don't construct from schemes, I'm just experimenting like "what will happen if we will solder this thing in and turn the power", or if something really simple is "broken", for example some wire would desolder and made no contact.
Of course you are way more experienced in both subjects than I am, I agree.
Anyways the flyback is now working properly, if you want to see it how it runs, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxKgCgn2_Vg
Sorry for the awful video quality, filmed with phone's camera and it's cloudy and dark everywhere... like in manchester?
Regards
inflater
Actually I don't have electricity as my hobby much. I don't construct from schemes, I'm just experimenting like "what will happen if we will solder this thing in and turn the power", or if something really simple is "broken", for example some wire would desolder and made no contact.
I thought it was the transformer's capacitor which was holding the charge. Actually, the only way to "discharge the charge" is to short flyback's pin 10 with the hv wire.. shorting the fat wire with the PC supply's ground pin won't help.relatively high DC voltage that drops extremely quickly to zero, which would feel similar to a large electro-static discharge.
Same here, but not sure about the three phase.Around here it's 240 volt AC (single phase) and 415 volt AC (three phase).
If the current passing is larger than 10mA I think so... I don't want to play smart in electricity here, just saying what I've been taught.This means that if you grab live wires with your hand (for e.g.) you have no control over your grip and can't let go.
I agree... ohm's law. Less the resistance, more the current.The other difference is that there's nothing to limit the current - under short circuit conditions you get between 5000 and 45000 amps
Not as a electrician, though. Playing with electricity is one of my interests, the primary and highest priority in them are computers and programming.The other thing I wanted to mention (in case you were thinking of doing something in this field as a career), is that you've probably blown your chances of getting a job (assuming you live that long).
Of course you are way more experienced in both subjects than I am, I agree.Anyways the flyback is now working properly, if you want to see it how it runs, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxKgCgn2_Vg
Sorry for the awful video quality, filmed with phone's camera and it's cloudy and dark everywhere... like in manchester?
Regards
inflater
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
I've uploaded a better video running the flyback. I couldnt just replace the avi file on youtube, had to remove it completely, so here is the new link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjQAGhafYsw
Sorry for the annoyance.
Sorry for the annoyance.
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
Upon desoldering old parts, I stumbled upon this:
http://danyk.wz.cz/soker.html
It should be a simple "shocker", plug in the battery, turn it on and let's see how long you can compete with the electrodes. The scheme has the 555 timer but I've never seen it in any commercial product, rumors say that in old PC monitors etc. So I decided to make my own transistor version,
http://inflater.wz.cz/pr1.png
This should work like a charm... it should oscillate 70-200Hz, like the scheme with 555 above.
http://danyk.wz.cz/soker.html
It should be a simple "shocker", plug in the battery, turn it on and let's see how long you can compete with the electrodes.
The scheme has the 555 timer but I've never seen it in any commercial product, rumors say that in old PC monitors etc. So I decided to make my own transistor version, http://inflater.wz.cz/pr1.png
This should work like a charm... it should oscillate 70-200Hz, like the scheme with 555 above.
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
One poor thing that I soldered in, was a SMD transistor with absolutely no number or anything to search on datasheets: after applying juice it was baken quickly. I found that these "avalanche generators" do not work well with every transistor, so I used KD333 and still no luck - well at least, this time it wasn't deep-fried.
I'll try some KF or KC500's...
I'll try some KF or KC500's...
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
Flybacks again. This time, I converted the wired gizmo from this
http://inflater.wz.cz/scr/ihvt_cele.jpg
to this
http://inflater.wz.cz/scr/ihvt_krabica.JPG
Now it's being powered from a scrap PC PSU instead of the 266MHz testbed.
I've tried to create a plasma ball thing you see in shops for 60$ using DC output from the transformer. Many people did use the unrectified flyback found in old black and white TV's, I've tried to use the spark gap combination like you will find in a spark gap tesla coil (SGTC), idea by teslatron.wz.cz ( ) but it didn't work... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSEAPRRc7f4
I'll try to wire the spark gap in parallel and add a high voltage capacitor as in here,
http://danyk.wz.cz/tesla_k.gif
but instead of the tesla coil itself, the light bulb goes on.
If this won't work, I'll try to make a very little SGTC powered from the flyback and if that will work, I will switch to more heavier artillery.
I've collected two microwave oven transformers and HV capacitors, suitable for a 4200V power supply (arcs more than 1.5m long).
http://inflater.wz.cz/scr/ihvt_cele.jpg
to this
http://inflater.wz.cz/scr/ihvt_krabica.JPG
Now it's being powered from a scrap PC PSU instead of the 266MHz testbed.
I've tried to create a plasma ball thing you see in shops for 60$ using DC output from the transformer. Many people did use the unrectified flyback found in old black and white TV's, I've tried to use the spark gap combination like you will find in a spark gap tesla coil (SGTC), idea by teslatron.wz.cz (
) but it didn't work... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSEAPRRc7f4I'll try to wire the spark gap in parallel and add a high voltage capacitor as in here,
http://danyk.wz.cz/tesla_k.gif
but instead of the tesla coil itself, the light bulb goes on.
If this won't work, I'll try to make a very little SGTC powered from the flyback and if that will work, I will switch to more heavier artillery.
I've collected two microwave oven transformers and HV capacitors, suitable for a 4200V power supply (arcs more than 1.5m long).
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
Demonstration of 12 volts running throuh the Holy Pencil Cartridge...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0__SX8X ... annel_page
And God said, Thou shalt GLOW!
I even managed to burn a hole in my shirt, right when I used thinner cartridge and applied the power. The graphite exploded and the hot shrapnels hit me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0__SX8X ... annel_page
And God said, Thou shalt GLOW!
I even managed to burn a hole in my shirt, right when I used thinner cartridge and applied the power. The graphite exploded and the hot shrapnels hit me...
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
Nobody interested in such experiments? I just made a sawtooth wave sound generator, but seems like nobody posts here... 
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)
Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
honestly, the stuff fascinates me, somewhat like the flame fascinated the cavemen though. I know very little in the field of electrostatics (or maybe that's the wrong subset I'm thinking of... see! 
).
Maybe when I finally get myself to learn more about electricity and how it interacts with various things, I would be a better fit to reply to such experiments.
The mess of wires -> PSU looks like an awesome feat though.
Unfortunately I can't view the light-bulb thing as my computer hates YouTube, but it still seems like a cool experiment.
). Maybe when I finally get myself to learn more about electricity and how it interacts with various things, I would be a better fit to reply to such experiments.
The mess of wires -> PSU looks like an awesome feat though.
Unfortunately I can't view the light-bulb thing as my computer hates YouTube, but it still seems like a cool experiment.
Website: https://joscor.com
Re: My electricity experiments aka How I failed again
Well, if anybody is interested, it's on http://inflater.wz.cz - http://inflater.wz.cz/site/el/bzucak.htm (or try http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... l=sk&tl=en ). Shouldn't be much hard to construct.
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)Re: Electricity experiments
So, I've ordered six 75x100mm and three 100x150mm plates of cuprexid (what's the translation... copper oxide? eh, just a material for doing PCB's), a sodium peroxydisulfate etchant, altough ferric chloride is commonly used, and a alcohol-based permanent felt tip for drawing. And I tried to create my own PCB. The result?
... before etching...
http://inflater.wz.cz/misc/pred_leptanim.JPG
...after etching....
http://inflater.wz.cz/misc/po_leptani.JPG
It's just undercut, the circuit has big spaces and some path's are not completed at all.
And it took a whole hour to etch... altough they mentioned that the peroxydisulfate solution should be warmed to at least 40°C, and I didn't warm it at all (etching in ferric chloride takes 10-15 minutes without warming, but I agree this is not the same chemical). You know, just put the thing into a bowl with water and let it warm, but uh I wonder if it just would a-splode as perfectly as TNT I'm not doing it... not to mention these etched stains o' copper, where they came from?
Ah well, gonna try the etching with the correct temperature, if it'll fail - it's time to dump it and buy the standard ferric chloride solution...
Has anyone created PCB's here?
... before etching...
http://inflater.wz.cz/misc/pred_leptanim.JPG
...after etching....
http://inflater.wz.cz/misc/po_leptani.JPG
It's just undercut, the circuit has big spaces and some path's are not completed at all.
And it took a whole hour to etch... altough they mentioned that the peroxydisulfate solution should be warmed to at least 40°C, and I didn't warm it at all (etching in ferric chloride takes 10-15 minutes without warming, but I agree this is not the same chemical). You know, just put the thing into a bowl with water and let it warm, but uh I wonder if it just would a-splode as perfectly as TNT I'm not doing it... not to mention these etched stains o' copper, where they came from?
Ah well, gonna try the etching with the correct temperature, if it'll fail - it's time to dump it and buy the standard ferric chloride solution...
Has anyone created PCB's here?
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)-
Love4Boobies
- Member
- Posts: 2111
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:36 pm
- Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Electricity experiments
I've played around a bit. AFAIK, I'm gonna have a course about that next year.inflater wrote:Has anyone created PCB's here?
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.", Popular Mechanics (1949)
[ Project UDI ]
[ Project UDI ]
Re: Electricity experiments
New "product" I've made today:
This time, it's a "machine" that will output 230V with current limit to 5mA. Nothing very special, maybe for testing LED diodes, but you can make fun with it quite easily: it can be used as a simple shocker. The scheme limits current to 4.7mA (with 230V, maximum safe current is 15mA) and you can select the output from 2.2 to 4.7mA. It gives pretty solid and safe slaps here and there.
Scheme:
http://inflater.wz.cz/site/el/kopac.htm
Final product (made in a PC mouse cover):
http://inflater.wz.cz/rany2/DSC00071.JPG
http://inflater.wz.cz/rany2/DSC00072.JPG
http://inflater.wz.cz/rany2/DSC00073.JPG
To anyone who wants to build this:
1."Fáza" means phase, hot wire and "nula" means the zero-wire (neutral). I recommend using PEN (ground pin) instead of the zero. This is the standard European wiring (at least here it applies), I don't know about US or other states.
2. DO NOT MIX UP the hot and neutral wire! The resistors must be in the phase wire, or else dangerous current can flow through you and may kill you or cause injuries.
3. DO NOT TOUCH anything except it's output. The scheme is galvanically connected with 230V, touch it at the wrong part (for example before the resistors) and again, unballasted current can flow through you.
4. Do not use a metal cover as a housing for this. If it's absolutely needed, make sure NO LIVE WIRE is touching the case and the box must be grounded!
5. Use resistors rated 2W and more, build exactly as described.
6. Do not use on anybody without their permission. Do not use on people which are allergic to electric shock (old people, people with epilepsy or heart diseases etc)
7. Before using, test with an ampermeter or with a LED. The maximum current should be no more than 10mA.
8. Last but not least: I'm not responsible for any harm done, mental or physical, corpses etc.
Have fun.
//EDIT: Hotlinking protection that I've forgot about. Fixed the link...
This time, it's a "machine" that will output 230V with current limit to 5mA. Nothing very special, maybe for testing LED diodes, but you can make fun with it quite easily: it can be used as a simple shocker. The scheme limits current to 4.7mA (with 230V, maximum safe current is 15mA) and you can select the output from 2.2 to 4.7mA. It gives pretty solid and safe slaps here and there.
Scheme:
http://inflater.wz.cz/site/el/kopac.htm
Final product (made in a PC mouse cover
):http://inflater.wz.cz/rany2/DSC00071.JPG
http://inflater.wz.cz/rany2/DSC00072.JPG
http://inflater.wz.cz/rany2/DSC00073.JPG
To anyone who wants to build this:
1."Fáza" means phase, hot wire and "nula" means the zero-wire (neutral). I recommend using PEN (ground pin) instead of the zero. This is the standard European wiring (at least here it applies), I don't know about US or other states.
2. DO NOT MIX UP the hot and neutral wire! The resistors must be in the phase wire, or else dangerous current can flow through you and may kill you or cause injuries.
3. DO NOT TOUCH anything except it's output. The scheme is galvanically connected with 230V, touch it at the wrong part (for example before the resistors) and again, unballasted current can flow through you.
4. Do not use a metal cover as a housing for this. If it's absolutely needed, make sure NO LIVE WIRE is touching the case and the box must be grounded!
5. Use resistors rated 2W and more, build exactly as described.
6. Do not use on anybody without their permission. Do not use on people which are allergic to electric shock (old people, people with epilepsy or heart diseases etc)
7. Before using, test with an ampermeter or with a LED. The maximum current should be no more than 10mA.
8. Last but not least: I'm not responsible for any harm done, mental or physical, corpses etc.
Have fun.
//EDIT: Hotlinking protection that I've forgot about. Fixed the link...
Last edited by inflater on Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My web site: http://inflater.wz.cz (Slovak)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English)
Derrick operating system: http://derrick.xf.cz (Slovak and English
)-
Troy Martin
- Member
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:40 pm
- Location: Langley, Vancouver, BC, Canada
- Contact:
Re: Electricity experiments
I'm taking an electronics beginner course at school this year, so we'll be doing some stuff with etching PCBs.inflater wrote:Has anyone created PCB's here?
I wish I could add more texSolar wrote:It keeps stunning me how friendly we - as a community - are towards people who start programming "their first OS" who don't even have a solid understanding of pointers, their compiler, or how a OS is structured.