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 Post subject: Moderation Style / Signal:Noise Ratio
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:05 am 
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Hi,

NickJohnson wrote:
iansjack wrote:
That certainly fits in with my perception that this forum is fast becoming little more than a playground for bored schoolchildren.


You know, this is what everyone was saying when I joined; it used to be much, much worse before http://www.osdev.org redirected to the wiki instead of the forum. I'm pretty sure this forum is instead remaining a playground for people who like to complain about how this forum is deteriorating. Or maybe it was just really that good in the good old days.


OS development is such a gigantic topic of discussion that one could fill several books on serious design discussions. We all could spend our precious time on the forums arguing and debating over things that matter; beautiful things like schedulers, IPC, and maybe even extend our area of concern to language designs, different architectures, since most of it does fall under the broad "OS development" umbrella head.

On the other hand, what we're doing here is replying to posts about cross-compiler errors, GRUB2 errors, "failing to read the wiki, google properly, and read the documentation" errors. Once in a while, we do get an amazing thread, but most of it's spoiled due to useless debates between rdos and Brendan -- while I respect Brendan in every way possible (he's the one due to whom I've got so much experience) -- both of them argue over their differences, and although we all, including Brendan, know that rdos won't give up, the debate still continues...

I guess that's mostly because the moderators here don't care about the quality of the forums. If I were a moderator, and I'm rather happy I'm not, with no offense to anyone, I'd straight away ban people like m12 and BMW. I can point to several threads where they spread misinformation, or ask stupid questions which arise due to not reading the documentation.

I'm not saying that we should ban every new guy. Everyone takes time to adjust... but, for people like those I've named above, it's been a long time, and I don't see much improvement. One post is forgiven, so is two, but... 371 or 177 posts just means poor moderation. I also say we should bring in more moderators like [com]bustor, enforce our advertised "beginner requirements" more strictly and properly, lock noobish threads quickly, and maybe ban people who just don't improve...

Note that I may sound a bit harsh. That's because I love this place, and the people here. However, just go through the current list of threads, and you almost feel like crying. This isn't osdev... this is "let's teach everyone how to build their tools properly!" We need some serious moderation and improvement here, that too soon.

Regards,
Shikhin

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:30 am 
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I think the gap between low-level-gnostic folk and new programmers is just getting wider and wider due to the increasing amount of work modern programming languages do for the user. Currently you will typically write apps for windows, mac, ios and android in a language that arranges all sorts of memory management for you. People are no longer used to low level memory management and manually invoking linkers and compilers.

In the end, I think the forum is just going to obsolete itself when the motivation of doing an increasingly lengthy job becomes harder than getting the needed information.


Quote:
I also say we should bring in more moderators like [com]bustor
I know not to trust myself with power.

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:16 am 
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Shikhin wrote:
I'd straight away ban people like m12 and BMW. I can point to several threads where they spread misinformation, or ask stupid questions which arise due to not reading the documentation.

I'm not saying that we should ban every new guy. Everyone takes time to adjust... but, for people like those I've named above, it's been a long time, and I don't see much improvement. One post is forgiven, so is two, but... 371 or 177 posts just means poor moderation.

Sure, go and trash all my posts based on about 2% of them. I like the way you contradict yourself here. You say: "I can point to several threads...", then go on to say "but... 371 or 177 posts...". Either you have a serious misunderstanding of the term "several", you just can't get your facts straight, or you like to exaggerate a lot.

And IMO, banning people that you don't like left right and centre isn't going to fix anything, but in fact fuel the fire for enraged banees coming on and PURPOSEFULLY being an idiot. Making new accounts isn't hard. You need to treat the problem, not the symptoms. The problem is that there are noobs (like me, yes I admit I am a noob sometimes) who start off OS Dev with some programming knowledge but little knowledge on how to research and RTFM for themselves (that was exactly me, and probably still is from time to time, but I'm working on it). How, exactly, to treat this problem is up to the admins/moderators. They have done a good job with the wiki with "Beginner Mistakes" etc, but I believe there must be a better solution. Maybe some sort of questionare upon joining the forums. But as I said earlier, it's not up to me.

Regards,
BMW.

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:32 am 
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Hi,

Shikhin wrote:
I guess that's mostly because the moderators here don't care about the quality of the forums.

I disagree. I would just prefer to attempt to educate rather than immediately ban. Usually, posts where users obviously fail to RTFM get locked / deleted fairly quickly and users get warned (especially if people use the 'report this post' system). If we continually warn users and they do not take any notice of that, then bans do happen.

I prefer to use permbans for instances where people are being abusive on the forums.

Perhaps "serious moderation" includes banning people for posting something in "Auto-Delete" when it belongs in "About this site"?

Cheers,
Adam


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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:41 am 
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AJ wrote:
Hi,

Shikhin wrote:
I guess that's mostly because the moderators here don't care about the quality of the forums.

I disagree. I would just prefer to attempt to educate rather than immediately ban. Usually, posts where users obviously fail to RTFM get locked / deleted fairly quickly and users get warned (especially if people use the 'report this post' system). If we continually warn users and they do not take any notice of that, then bans do happen.

I prefer to use permbans for instances where people are being abusive on the forums.

Perhaps "serious moderation" includes banning people for posting something in "Auto-Delete" when it belongs in "About this site"?

Cheers,
Adam

=D>

I really like what you just said "I would just prefer to attempt to educate rather than immediately ban.". That is treating the problem, not the symptoms. Also it made me realise something:
After all, what is the point of this forum?
a) For all the professionals that already know how to RTFM etc and are good programmers to get together and discuss the downfalls of noobs.
b) For professionals that already know how to RTFM etc and are good programmers to meet with the noobs and help them with OS Dev and help them overcome their "noobness" and teach them how to RTFM etc and program. And for people to discuss awesome ideas.

I am leaning towards b... only slightly though. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:16 am 
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Hi,

BMW wrote:
Sure, go and trash all my posts based on about 2% of them. I like the way you contradict yourself here. You say: "I can point to several threads...", then go on to say "but... 371 or 177 posts...". Either you have a serious misunderstanding of the term "several", you just can't get your facts straight, or you like to exaggerate a lot.


Heh. "I can point to several threads..." referred to the fact that quickly viewing your last few threads results in some being obvious "need to read more" problems. On the other hand, 177 (currently 186... you sure post a lot) is the total number of posts by you; I'm not saying all are surely wrong, but seeing your record, I can say almost 60% would be out-of-the-place, misinformed, and so on..

BMW wrote:
And IMO, banning people that you don't like left right and centre isn't going to fix anything, but in fact fuel the fire for enraged banees coming on and PURPOSEFULLY being an idiot. Making new accounts isn't hard. You need to treat the problem, not the symptoms. The problem is that there are noobs (like me, yes I admit I am a noob sometimes) who start off OS Dev with some programming knowledge but little knowledge on how to research and RTFM for themselves (that was exactly me, and probably still is from time to time, but I'm working on it). How, exactly, to treat this problem is up to the admins/moderators. They have done a good job with the wiki with "Beginner Mistakes" etc, but I believe there must be a better solution. Maybe some sort of questionare upon joining the forums. But as I said earlier, it's not up to me.


I just read some old JamesM post on the difference between newbie and noob -- a newbie is a one who doesn't know much, but he works on his knowledge slowly and steadily. A noob is a one who doesn't know much, and wishes that someone else would help him know more. It's not a "fixed status" -- a noob today can be a newbie tomorrow, but a noob sure as hell is dangerous. No offense to you, but I percieve that you fit in the noob category, and haven't moved along since a long time. That, in my book, means that you need to work a lot.

AJ wrote:
I disagree. I would just prefer to attempt to educate rather than immediately ban. Usually, posts where users obviously fail to RTFM get locked / deleted fairly quickly and users get warned (especially if people use the 'report this post' system). If we continually warn users and they do not take any notice of that, then bans do happen.


D'oh. I am not aware of this procedure, although, frankly, I haven't noticed it in place. Can you probably quote some users from the past quarter (or 6 months) who've been banned, or maybe notified once or twice?

Aj wrote:
Perhaps "serious moderation" includes banning people for posting something in "Auto-Delete" when it belongs in "About this site"?


Not banning. Moving posts. I'm sure you can do that, but you didn't. Isn't that poor moderation? :)

Or, if I tend to post stuff about "About this site" in "Auto-Delete" too often, and I don't change myself even though you've done this two/three times, yep, ban.

Quite frankly, this site has lost much of it's sheen for me. I tend to prefer most of the old threads (a quick google search, and amazingly, you can find any info about any topic on the boards!), and the IRC channel. The wiki is somewhat nice, but I don't see many people (including me) working seriously on it.

Regards,
Shikhin

P.S. D'oh, I just realized I've been a totally rude arse. I'm sorry to everyone, especially BMW. My views are strictly my own, and can obviously be wrong. If someone prefers so, I can moderate/edit my past posts. :)

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:18 am 
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Hi,

BMW wrote:
After all, what is the point of this forum?
a) For all the professionals that already know how to RTFM etc and are good programmers to get together and discuss the downfalls of noobs.
b) For professionals that already know how to RTFM etc and are good programmers to meet with the noobs and help them with OS Dev and help them overcome their "noobness" and teach them how to RTFM etc and program. And for people to discuss awesome ideas.


I guess your and my view differ. I see a "perfect OSDev.org forum" as a place for people to come together, and lo!... discuss OSDev. If someone wants to learn OSDev, they should be capable of doing so on their own. Yes, I'm being a bit paradoxical here, since I myself used the forums as a place to learn OSDev. Then, again, I'm not the best example around, so...

Regards,
Shikhin

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:33 am 
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Shikhin wrote:
I guess your and my view differ. I see a "perfect OSDev.org forum" as a place for people to come together, and lo!... discuss OSDev. If someone wants to learn OSDev, they should be capable of doing so on their own. Yes, I'm being a bit paradoxical here, since I myself used the forums as a place to learn OSDev. Then, again, I'm not the best example around, so...

Regards,
Shikhin

Scroll up to the very top of the page. Can you see this?

OSDev.org
The Place to Start for Operating System Developers

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:40 am 
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Hi,

Shikhin wrote:
Can you probably quote some users from the past quarter (or 6 months) who've been banned, or maybe notified once or twice?


People do not get notified every time users are warned or banned (unless banning relates to a particular thread where the ban is sometimes mentioned). I'm not going to get in to quoting names, but I can certainly point to 6 warnings in the past 5 weeks. There have also been bans in the same time, although I generally consider permbans to be a failure of other methods rather than something to be proud of. Trying to educate users rather than bringing down the banhammer hopefully leads to improvement in S:N ratio in the future.

Shikhin wrote:
Yes, I'm being a bit paradoxical here, since I myself used the forums as a place to learn OSDev.

So you would have banned yourself by now?

Shikhin wrote:
Not banning. Moving posts. I'm sure you can do that, but you didn't. Isn't that poor moderation?

TBH, I'm quite happy with this remaining in Auto-Delete and the problem will solve itself before long anyway :)

Shikhin wrote:
P.S. D'oh, I just realized I've been a totally rude arse. I'm sorry to everyone, especially BMW. My views are strictly my own, and can obviously be wrong. If someone prefers so, I can moderate/edit my past posts.

No need to edit the posts - everyone's entitled to disagree. I realise that not everyone can be pleased with how the forum is moderated all the time. I for one have benefited from less strict moderation in the past, because I've asked some pretty stupid questions. The gist of your posts is perfectly correct that we should expect individuals to improve over time. Perhaps I'm just more inclined to be lenient about this.

Historically, it was always desired that the forum became used less and less, while the wiki became the place to go. Perhaps the focus has stayed on the forums for longer than intended.

Cheers,
Adam


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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:26 am 
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Hi,

BMW wrote:
Shikhin wrote:
I guess your and my view differ. I see a "perfect OSDev.org forum" as a place for people to come together, and lo!... discuss OSDev. If someone wants to learn OSDev, they should be capable of doing so on their own. Yes, I'm being a bit paradoxical here, since I myself used the forums as a place to learn OSDev. Then, again, I'm not the best example around, so...

Regards,
Shikhin

Scroll up to the very top of the page. Can you see this?

OSDev.org
The Place to Start for Operating System Developers


  1. Now that you've scrolled all the way up, scroll all the way down. This builds your hand muscles, too.
  2. Read what I wrote. Read the place where I said, and I quote, "perfect OSDev.org forum".
  3. Read everything I said in this thread again. Confirm whether I implied that this forum is perfect anywhere?
  4. Lower down your snarky tone. I know you're a bit sad that I said you should be banned, but if you read carefully, I said I myself should be banned too. Let's have a good discussion, please.
  5. ???
  6. PROFIT (and share with Shikhin)!

Regards,
Shikhin

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:30 am 
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Hi,

AJ wrote:
Shikhin wrote:
Yes, I'm being a bit paradoxical here, since I myself used the forums as a place to learn OSDev.

So you would have banned yourself by now?


Honestly, yes...

I consider myself to be one of the biggest failures of this forum. When I entered this field, I didn't know much about programming. This forum didn't ban me immediately (although, I did give you guys good reason with my first thread), and here I am... knowing not much about higher level programming, but still developing an (several?) OS(s?)... :P

Aj wrote:
TBH, I'm quite happy with this remaining in Auto-Delete and the problem will solve itself before long anyway :)


I understood the tone you wrote that line with, to which I said my bit. :)

Aj wrote:
Shikhin wrote:
P.S. D'oh, I just realized I've been a totally rude arse. I'm sorry to everyone, especially BMW. My views are strictly my own, and can obviously be wrong. If someone prefers so, I can moderate/edit my past posts.

No need to edit the posts - everyone's entitled to disagree. I realise that not everyone can be pleased with how the forum is moderated all the time. I for one have benefited from less strict moderation in the past, because I've asked some pretty stupid questions. The gist of your posts is perfectly correct that we should expect individuals to improve over time. Perhaps I'm just more inclined to be lenient about this.

Historically, it was always desired that the forum became used less and less, while the wiki became the place to go. Perhaps the focus has stayed on the forums for longer than intended.


Maybe it's because the wiki isn't ready, yet?

Regards,
Shikhin

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:03 am 
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Shikhin wrote:
PROFIT (and share with Shikhin)!

:)


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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:07 am 
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Shikhin wrote:
D'oh. I am not aware of this procedure, although, frankly, I haven't noticed it in place. Can you probably quote some users from the past quarter (or 6 months) who've been banned, or maybe notified once or twice?

personally, i consider this to be confidential information that should never under any circumstances be shared with anyone who is not a moderator (any moderator who would break this, shouldn't be allowed to be a moderator)

moderators are in a trusted position, and should never talk about confidential issues with particular users, that is why the moderators have private forums where we can discus issues that arise and people who cause trouble without getting the general community involved or talking about problems publicly

if a user is warned, and takes that warning well, there should never be a reason for the public to ever know what happened, even in the case of permban, the public shouldn't need to know more than they do (on the other hand, if someone from another forum moderator asks privately, i could discus issues we had in view of helping them moderate potential trouble elsewhere)

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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:59 am 
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While I certainly agree that confidential things should be kept confidential, I'm also aware that we are on a public forum and some actions affect the entire community. As far as I'm concerned, the times when people do get to know about bans are:

- When a user makes the issue public by blatantly coming back under another username, which has happened in the past (sometimes the pseudonym has been created purely for the sake of saying "you can't ban me..."). It seems to me that in this case, the banned user has made it perfectly clear that they do not want the matter to be confidential. This has also come up in the past when users have gone on to make claims about their treatment here on other public forums.
- When a user has been banned for personally "attacking" another user - informing the person who has been attacked seems to me to be reasonable.

Cheers,
Adam


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 Post subject: Re: I AM SO HAPPY
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:48 am 
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Hi,

Eh, what?

Confidentiality? Lolwut?

As far as I'm concerned, again, hypothesizing about the perfect OSDev.org forum, the board should be 100% democratical in nature. Democracy isn't implemented in its pure form in the real world, mostly because there is a fear of the participating people being criminals/unstable, as well as a large population-base. Our forums has both a small user-base, and I suppose all of us are mentally stable? The concept of moderators should only exist to IMPLEMENT these decisions, so that we have some concepts of security. Other than that, things like permbans should be discussed and polled over... with all the people! Not in a "secret subforum."

You're not part of the NSA, are you? :roll:

Anyway, I guess if the moderators don't want change, and reading how this board functions, I guess it's just better for me to leave this place after some time...

Regards,
Shikhin

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