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 Post subject: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:37 am 
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Hi,


I'm putting this in Auto-Delete, because I don't want this topic to be persisted. It could also be written as a PM, but I thought it would be better if other people could also suggest some more advice.

----

users browsing this forum... uh oh
While it's true that some forum posts may be frustrating to read, I don't think you are doing anything good in this case. Most forum members came here to learn, and there are relatively only a few ones that already knew most things involved in OS development. Even you, you don't know everything and that's perfectly fine. But please don't accuse others of not knowing everything, even if it is basic low-level things.

Note that the gap between low-level (system) programming and high-level (application) programming is getting bigger all the time. You can't possibly expect in 2017 that every high-level programmer will know assembly for a specific platform (since almost all applications are written in a high-level language).

----

snip
I don't think it's a good idea to wake up an idle for more than three weeks thread to bash the OP. I think he is almost right regarding the x86 platform (badly designed, too complex). But I wouldn't defend him either concerning OISC, his bad/wrong use of the x86 platform, etc. That needs correcting.

However, pointing out in red his misspelled words and in green the same words with corrected spelling doesn't help him correct his wrong perceptions on computing (which is included in the point of this forum, that is answer questions and help users get rid of their wrong thoughts concerning computing, and not correct their spelling). It also looks quite impolite, really.

And yes, as much as I dislike Geri's posting style, I think Geri had the right to defend himself here. The thing that he didn't do it well is another matter.

----

In overall, I think you should concentrate on the topic of the OSDev forums, instead of bashing other members out of the blue. It doesn't make you better than them. And yes, I know I just bashed you, but I did it hopefully in a non-insulting way and I primarily wanted to contribute to the well-being of the OSDev forums.


Regards,
glauxosdever

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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:11 pm 
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its nice to see that despite he despises the tutorial and me, but he still follows it precisely from step by step

however i would be very suprised if he would be able to achieve anything, from his posts, the lack of any kind of knowledge shines out.

i think he is the type of guy who just agressively want to ***** and moan about everything until somebody solves all of the problems, without the ability to add anything in return. osdev is, however, more complex than that, a c compiler is not something he can just copypaste into his code.

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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:02 pm 
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I think it would be probably useless to worry about trolls right now.

I think it's a symptom of new generations of programmers who face systems that are far too complex, even if they are open source they feel as if they are closed source, and they are only offered high level tools and high level languages. They don't even know how to create simple executables that suit their applications and then create their own small linkers, as people were capable of doing back then. In reality we are navigating in the deepest ignorance since personal computers were created. Programmers don't know how to program all hardware peripherals from scratch because there is no single PC or computer that is 100% open down to how it was designed at the electronics level, so they are forced to a programming level that is too poor in technical or digital terms, and then they become technically incompetent.

You can't expect people using only programming languages and environments/frameworks that don't require people from learning any crucial details to produce knowledgeable programmers. They are just driving the libraries just like everyone was driving I/O ports before, but the problem is that now the black box isn't the electronics, but the in and outs of how to program the actual system foundations.

Books about heavy low level (low level==full disclosure about how things work without any skipping any explanation from scratch) have become extremely scarce because some computer industry parameter suggested that the general population "failed" at understanding and developing hardware and software by themselves with the books and simple but powerful circuits available at that time. But that has to be reverted.


You could never believe how many older, already adult people I have recently encountered, only this year, who behave pedantically because they are technically incompetent.

They do it to "spam" our attention and distract us gradually more and more from the quality of the forum.

See, people comes to OSDev.org as if it was a file sharing service.

It isn't a file sharing service, but instead, people expects to find valuable snippets to advance their OSes in details that otherwise could make them take weeks or months.

That's what people who just create conflicts, and who are technically incompetent, want to break down and turn non-functional.

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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:40 pm 
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glauxosdever wrote:
Hi,


I'm putting this in Auto-Delete, because I don't want this topic to be persisted. It could also be written as a PM, but I thought it would be better if other people could also suggest some more advice.

----

users browsing this forum... uh oh
While it's true that some forum posts may be frustrating to read, I don't think you are doing anything good in this case. Most forum members came here to learn, and there are relatively only a few ones that already knew most things involved in OS development. Even you, you don't know everything and that's perfectly fine. But please don't accuse others of not knowing everything, even if it is basic low-level things.

Note that the gap between low-level (system) programming and high-level (application) programming is getting bigger all the time. You can't possibly expect in 2017 that every high-level programmer will know assembly for a specific platform (since almost all applications are written in a high-level language).

----

snip
I don't think it's a good idea to wake up an idle for more than three weeks thread to bash the OP. I think he is almost right regarding the x86 platform (badly designed, too complex). But I wouldn't defend him either concerning OISC, his bad/wrong use of the x86 platform, etc. That needs correcting.

However, pointing out in red his misspelled words and in green the same words with corrected spelling doesn't help him correct his wrong perceptions on computing (which is included in the point of this forum, that is answer questions and help users get rid of their wrong thoughts concerning computing, and not correct their spelling). It also looks quite impolite, really.

And yes, as much as I dislike Geri's posting style, I think Geri had the right to defend himself here. The thing that he didn't do it well is another matter.

----

In overall, I think you should concentrate on the topic of the OSDev forums, instead of bashing other members out of the blue. It doesn't make you better than them. And yes, I know I just bashed you, but I did it hopefully in a non-insulting way and I primarily wanted to contribute to the well-being of the OSDev forums.


Regards,
glauxosdever


I didn't want to upset people. I wanted to guide people and help.

I know what to do that will make things work out here...


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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:04 pm 
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stevewoods1986 wrote:
I didn't want to upset people. I wanted to guide people and help.

Being rude and impolite towards others is never a way to guide people and help. It will always upset people and make them defensive against you, even if your main point is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Steve, you have said somewhere, you are 31. I can't help myself but ask this. In base 4? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:01 pm 
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~ wrote:
I think it would be probably useless to worry about trolls right now.

I think it's a symptom of new generations of programmers who face systems that are far too complex, even if they are open source they feel as if they are closed source, and they are only offered high level tools and high level languages. They don't even know how to create simple executables that suit their applications and then create their own small linkers, as people were capable of doing back then. In reality we are navigating in the deepest ignorance since personal computers were created. Programmers don't know how to program all hardware peripherals from scratch because there is no single PC or computer that is 100% open down to how it was designed at the electronics level, so they are forced to a programming level that is too poor in technical or digital terms, and then they become technically incompetent.

You can't expect people using only programming languages and environments/frameworks that don't require people from learning any crucial details to produce knowledgeable programmers. They are just driving the libraries just like everyone was driving I/O ports before, but the problem is that now the black box isn't the electronics, but the in and outs of how to program the actual system foundations.

Books about heavy low level (low level==full disclosure about how things work without any skipping any explanation from scratch) have become extremely scarce because some computer industry parameter suggested that the general population "failed" at understanding and developing hardware and software by themselves with the books and simple but powerful circuits available at that time. But that has to be reverted.


I agree that a part of the problem might be the incredible complexity of modern computing systems. But, I don't think that ignorance of the systems is due to the complexity. I think the problem is simply that computing has been attracting far more people than before, so there's naturally going to be a drop in the perception of overall programmer quality. I don't think that writing linkers, or compilers is necessarily something everyone needs to know. It is a good thing a lot of work is handled without the programmer having to know the details. The problem is that education systems can not keep up with the rate of development of computers (or a lot of technology in general). So the only ones with the sort of knowledge you are describing, are the ones who are motivated to teach themselves and to keep up with developments. The knowledge is out there, however, since education systems cannot keep pace, it takes a motivated individual to dig out the relevant information for him/herself.

Programmers don't NEED to know how to program all the hardware from scratch, that'd be an unnecessary duplication of effort most of the time. What programmers do need to know is how to process the information required to solve a given problem, be it writing drivers for a piece of hardware, or writing a web application. Just as with automation, being almost permanently connected to the internet has changed what it means to be a good programmer from being able to write stuff like drivers to being able to read and interpret information in order to solve a problem. Basically, what I'm saying is that a modern programmer needs to be able to for instance, look at the Intel x86_64 manuals and figure out which bits of information he/she needs and interpret said information to write a kernel, or similarly, be able to look at the manual describing a peripheral and collect information in order to be able to figure out how to write a driver for it.

There is lots of heavy documentation out there for most commonly available peripherals. However, to quote Carl Sagan, "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". Modern documentation must skip many details simply because there is too much to document. For instance, the Intel HD Graphics manuals don't explain the details of obtaining the EDID from a connected screen, they simply describe the GMBUS and its register interface, obtaining the EDID is out of the scope of the document, that information is described in various other pieces of documentation by various other standards committees. Yes, that makes it difficult for someone to follow along, but a modern programmer should have the skills to do the necessary research to find this information. Then there's the hardware side documentation, where you won't find transistor or even circuit level descriptions for most peripherals simply because there is no reason for that anymore. The hardware was developed in an HDL, thus making it all simply code, meaning the software documentation pretty much is the hardware documentation.

I'm not incredibly sure what the rest of this thread is about, and I suspect that I'm not particularly on-topic, but just wanted to put my thoughts out.

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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:26 am 
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hgoel wrote:
I don't think that writing linkers, or compilers is necessarily something everyone needs to know. It is a good thing a lot of work is handled without the programmer having to know the details. The problem is that education systems can not keep up with the rate of development of computers (or a lot of technology in general). [...] Programmers don't NEED to know how to program all the hardware from scratch, that'd be an unnecessary duplication of effort most of the time.


There's an important point here.

Back when many of us started, "computing" and "knowing much about the system" was synonymous. Heck, on the C64 you could not even load and start a game without knowing at least some BASIC commands. And there were, relatively speaking, only very few people around having to do anything with computers. A couple of years later, we still carefully hand-picked the components for our systems, making sure that CPU and mainboard and gfx card and sound card really worked well with each other, and were appropriately cooled. We "knew" computers.

Today, the systems have become more complex, many many more people are working on and programming for them, and you can spend a lifetime as a professional software engineer without ever getting "down to the metal". You buy your computer (or laptop) at the supermarket.

Is that a bad thing? Generally speaking?

I don't think so. Today, the problems faced by developers are getting a good storyline for your 3D game going, shoveling data between databases, serving a comfortable website to the customer or playing a BluRay. The hardware doesn't matter anymore.

The percentage of developers that ever need to know about instruction sets, registers, memory-mapped I/O and such things, has been rapidly going down over the years. Because the tools, libraries, and operating systems we are working with have grown so powerful, enabling us to do things like 3D games, big-data systems, dynamic HTML and home media entertainment.

That does not mean that there is any point in having our collective noses up high and looking down on those "high-level" developers. At the end of the day, their work gets noticed by the average end-user, while what we are doing here is, at the end of the day, irrelevant.

A hobby.

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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:41 am 
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zaval wrote:
Steve, you have said somewhere, you are 31. I can't help myself but ask this. In base 4? :lol:


No. In decimal (base 10). It doesn't matter if I am 60 years old. Age doesn't matter.

Solar wrote:
hgoel wrote:
I don't think that writing linkers, or compilers is necessarily something everyone needs to know. It is a good thing a lot of work is handled without the programmer having to know the details. The problem is that education systems can not keep up with the rate of development of computers (or a lot of technology in general). [...] Programmers don't NEED to know how to program all the hardware from scratch, that'd be an unnecessary duplication of effort most of the time.


There's an important point here.

Back when many of us started, "computing" and "knowing much about the system" was synonymous. Heck, on the C64 you could not even load and start a game without knowing at least some BASIC commands. And there were, relatively speaking, only very few people around having to do anything with computers. A couple of years later, we still carefully hand-picked the components for our systems, making sure that CPU and mainboard and gfx card and sound card really worked well with each other, and were appropriately cooled. We "knew" computers.

Today, the systems have become more complex, many many more people are working on and programming for them, and you can spend a lifetime as a professional software engineer without ever getting "down to the metal". You buy your computer (or laptop) at the supermarket.

Is that a bad thing? Generally speaking?

I don't think so. Today, the problems faced by developers are getting a good storyline for your 3D game going, shoveling data between databases, serving a comfortable website to the customer or playing a BluRay. The hardware doesn't matter anymore.

The percentage of developers that ever need to know about instruction sets, registers, memory-mapped I/O and such things, has been rapidly going down over the years. Because the tools, libraries, and operating systems we are working with have grown so powerful, enabling us to do things like 3D games, big-data systems, dynamic HTML and home media entertainment.

That does not mean that there is any point in having our collective noses up high and looking down on those "high-level" developers. At the end of the day, their work gets noticed by the average end-user, while what we are doing here is, at the end of the day, irrelevant.

A hobby.


Yep, people struggled. Win98 was a pain. Back in the 90s, we didn't even know how to turn a computer on.


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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:27 am 
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stevewoods1986 wrote:
Solar wrote:
Today, the systems have become more complex, many many more people are working on and programming for them, and you can spend a lifetime as a professional software engineer without ever getting "down to the metal". You buy your computer (or laptop) at the supermarket.


Yep, people struggled. Win98 was a pain. Back in the 90s, we didn't even know how to turn a computer on.


I consider Win98 to be well beyond the "curve" I was talking about, but... OK. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:50 pm 
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stevewoods1986 wrote:
No. In decimal (base 10). It doesn't matter if I am 60 years old. Age doesn't matter.


You say that age doesn't matter, but was it not you who pointed out how what you do is impressive for a 31 year old?

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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:37 am 
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I don't think Steve should worry about being past it because of his age. Plenty of people older than him are successful in programming. It's a matter of attitude, and a willingness to learn, rather than age.


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 Post subject: Re: Message to stevewoods1986
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:42 pm 
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Jean Phillipe, open Hell's Forum!

Yeah, except there are a dozen Gordon Ramsays here, all trying to run things their way, whether they have any standing to or not... and several dozen Josephs, Rajs, and Melindas... and more than a few Amy Bouzaglos wandering in from OS Nightmares to make things even crazier.

Or perhaps comparing it to the Dark Souls fanbase would make more sense - except that "Get Good!" doesn't cover it really, though it is part of it all. Get Attitudinous may be closer to the mark.

Thing is, though, with a topic so demanding, and so focused, and so - dare I say it? - esoteric, that's sort of inevitable. It's like mountain climbing - it demands careful attention to detail, rigorous preparation, utmost skill, and - let's be honest here - a real egotistical streak, a belief that you can persevere and overcome. Even if, as I have argued, the skills used in OS dev don't really reflect those needed in other types of programming, it is still very much a test of one's ability to even get the most basic self-booting system going. It is a field which draws in people with strong beliefs and opinions, and no small amount of arrogance. It wouldn't be OS dev otherwise.

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